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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-02 > 0887837385


From: Alan B. Wilson< >
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Shah Ismael I of Persia
Date: 18 Feb 1998 21:29:45 GMT


In article <>, (William
Addams Reitwiesner) wrote:

> (Alan B. Wilson) wrote:
>
> > I was intrigued by the submission by Frank H. Johnson on Wed., 11
> >Feb. 1998, on the ancestry of Ismael I, and by the question about possible
> >linkages to Charlemagne. I have followed with interest the subsequent
> >submissions in this thread.
> >
> > I have compiled a selective ancestry which, after several
> >generations, diverges from the line which I have seen discussed. The
> >sixteenth generation of this selective ancestry includes twelve persons,
> >each of whom has, I believe, a Carolingian descent.
>
>
> Unfortunately most of these descents go through a faulty connection.
>
> <bandwidth chomp>
>
>
> >112 Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) Emperor in Trapezunt.[233,
> >ii, 176],[444, p. 281] Born on 5 Oct 1338.[233, ii, 176 *],[444, p. 281 *
> >(5 Oct 1337)] Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) died on 20 Mar
> >1390; he was 51.[233, ii, 176 +]
> >
> > Named Jean[444, p. 281]
> >
> >In Sep 1351 when Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) was 12, he
> >married Theodora Kantakuzene[233, ii, 176],[444, pp. 250, 281].[233, ii,
> >176 =],[444, p. 281 =]
> >
> >
> >Eighth Generation
> >
> >
> >224 Basileios Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii, 176],[444, p.
> >280] Basileios Megas Komnenos died on 6 Apr 1340.[233, ii, 176 +],[444, p.
> >280 +] Emperor {1332-1340}.[444, p. 280]
> >
> >In Sep 1335 Basileios Megas Komnenos married Eirene Palaiologina Princess
> >of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183 =],[444, pp. 280, 372 =] They were divorced in
> >1339.[233, ii, 183]
> >
> > Invalidated
> >
> >225 Eirene Palaiologina Princess of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183],[444, pp. 280, 372]
>
> <bandwidth chomp again>
>
>
> >233. Schwennicke, Detlev (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln : Stammtafeln zur
> >Geschichte der europaischen Staaten / begrundet von Wilhelm Karl Prinz zu
> >Isenburg ; fortgefuhrt von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven ; neue
> >Folge herausgegeben von., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
> >444. Sturdza, Mihail-Dimitri, Dictionnaire historique et Genealogique des
> >grandes familles de Grece, dAlbanie et de Constantinople, Paris, by the
> >author, 1983.
>
> These are the only sources you cite for these people. I checked both of
> these sources, and while both of them say that Basileus (224) married
> Eirene Palaiologina (225), both of them also say that Alexios III (112) was
> a bastard son of Basileus by a mistress named Eirene. Stourdza says (p.
> 281) of Alexios III and his siblings: "enfants naturels d'une autre Irene".
>
> This means that the woman you show as number 225 was not the mother of
> number 112, and that all of her ancestry is lost to his descendants.
> Unless you have an additional source which you haven't mentioned here.
>
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
>
>
> "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."

You are quite right. These were the only two sources upon which I
relied for information about generations four through ten. This includes
the parentage of Alexios III.

My attention surely wandered when scanning these entries. I can see
how I missed the specification in Sturdza, p. 281, given the way it was
formatted. But my error in reading the entry in ES ii, 176 is harder to
fathom. Perhaps you noticed that I even transcribed the word "ungultig"
(which I translated as "invalidated"), but applied it to the first
marriage, to Eirene Palaiologina, rather than to the second, unknown,
Eirene.

In any event, as you suggest, this cuts generation sixteen down to
the single occupant, Prisca of Hungary.

1 Abdul Muzaffar Ismail I d. on 23 May 1524.
3 Halima Begi Aqa d. aft 1499.
7 Theodora Megale Komnene d. aft 1474.
14 Ioannes IV Megas Komnenos d. ca 1460
28 Alexios IV (Basile) Megas Komnenos d. on 28 Oct 1429.
56 Manuel III Achpugas Megas Komnenos d. on 5 Mar 1417.
112 Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos)
d. on 20 Mar 1390.
224 Basileios Megas Komnenos d. on 6 Apr 1340.
448 Alexios II Palaiologos Megas Komnenos d. on 3 May 1330.
897 Eudokia Palaiologina d. on 12 Dec 1302.
1794 Michael VIII Dukas Angelos Komnenos Palaiologos
d. on 11 Dec 1282.
3588 Andronikos Dukas Komnenos Palaiologos d. in 1247.
3589 Theodora Palaiologina.
7177 Irene Komnene Dasiotissa.
7178 Alexios Komnenos Palaiologos d. in 1201/1204.
14355 Maria Komnene.
14357 Eirene Komnene Kantakuzene.
28710 Androniko Komnenos d. in 1142.
28715 Maria Komnene, same as number 14355
57421 Prisca of Hungary d. on 13 Aug 1134.

This ancestral micro-listing may be confusing because Maria Komnene
married twice. Descendants from these separate marriages, of differing
generations, intermarried. Perhaps a chart would clarify this.

John (Ioannes) II Komnenos = Prisca of Hungary
(Dukas?) | 57421
|
Androniko K. = Eirene
28710 |
|
Theodoros Dasiotos = (1) Marie K. (2) = Ioannes Kantakuzenos
| 14355=28715 |
| |
Alexios P. = Irene D. Dukas P. = Eirene Kantakuzene
| 7177 | 14357
| |
| Alexios P. = Eirene Angelina
| 7178 |
| |
Andronikos P. =================== Theodora P.
3588 | 3589
|
Michael VIII P. = Theodora P.
1794 |
|
Eudokia P.
897

The line of ascent from the thirteenth generation differs from that
originally presented by Frank Johnson on 11 Feb. It also bypasses the
uncertain descent from Prisca through the Angelos family, used by Leo van
de Pas, which was critiqued by William Addams Reitwiesner in his message
of 12 Feb. So, if I haven't made further errors (an eventuality on which
I do not heavily rely :-), I may yet have restored a path from Ismail I to
Charlemagne through Prisca on a more solid footing.

Please ignore the micro-pedigree for Geza II of Hungary which I have
already submitted. I'll not plague the newsgroup with the other ten
micro-pedigrees which I had had in mind.

My thanks to WAR for (once again) sorting me out.

--
Alan B. Wilson

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