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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-02 > 0887846465


From: "Frank H. Johansen" <>
Subject: Re: Ancestry of Shah Ismael I of Persia
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 01:01:05 +0100


Alan B. Wilson wrote:

> In article <>, (William
> Addams Reitwiesner) wrote:
>
> > (Alan B. Wilson) wrote:
> >
> > > I was intrigued by the submission by Frank H. Johnson on Wed., 11
> > >Feb. 1998, on the ancestry of Ismael I, and by the question about possible
> > >linkages to Charlemagne. I have followed with interest the subsequent
> > >submissions in this thread.
> > >
> > > I have compiled a selective ancestry which, after several
> > >generations, diverges from the line which I have seen discussed. The
> > >sixteenth generation of this selective ancestry includes twelve persons,
> > >each of whom has, I believe, a Carolingian descent.
> >
> >
> > Unfortunately most of these descents go through a faulty connection.
> >
> > <bandwidth chomp>
> >
> >
> > >112 Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) Emperor in Trapezunt.[233,
> > >ii, 176],[444, p. 281] Born on 5 Oct 1338.[233, ii, 176 *],[444, p. 281 *
> > >(5 Oct 1337)] Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) died on 20 Mar
> > >1390; he was 51.[233, ii, 176 +]
> > >
> > > Named ³Jean²[444, p. 281]
> > >
> > >In Sep 1351 when Alexios III (Angelos Dukas Megas Komnenos) was 12, he
> > >married Theodora Kantakuzene[233, ii, 176],[444, pp. 250, 281].[233, ii,
> > >176 =],[444, p. 281 =]
> > >
> > >
> > >Eighth Generation
> > >‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹‹
> > >
> > >224 Basileios Megas Komnenos Emperor in Trapezunt.[233, ii, 176],[444, p.
> > >280] Basileios Megas Komnenos died on 6 Apr 1340.[233, ii, 176 +],[444, p.
> > >280 +] Emperor {1332-1340}.[444, p. 280]
> > >
> > >In Sep 1335 Basileios Megas Komnenos married Eirene Palaiologina Princess
> > >of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183 =],[444, pp. 280, 372 =] They were divorced in
> > >1339.[233, ii, 183]
> > >
> > > Invalidated
> > >
> > >225 Eirene Palaiologina Princess of Byzanz.[233, ii, 183],[444, pp. 280, 372]
> >
> > <bandwidth chomp again>
> >
> >
> > >233. Schwennicke, Detlev (ed.), Europaische Stammtafeln : Stammtafeln zur
> > >Geschichte der europaischen Staaten / begrundet von Wilhelm Karl Prinz zu
> > >Isenburg ; fortgefuhrt von Frank Baron Freytag von Loringhoven ; neue
> > >Folge herausgegeben vonŠ., Marburg: Stargardt, 1978-<1995 >.
> > >444. Sturdza, Mihail-Dimitri, Dictionnaire historique et Genealogique des
> > >grandes familles de Grece, d¹Albanie et de Constantinople, Paris, by the
> > >author, 1983.
> >
> > These are the only sources you cite for these people. I checked both of
> > these sources, and while both of them say that Basileus (224) married
> > Eirene Palaiologina (225), both of them also say that Alexios III (112) was
> > a bastard son of Basileus by a mistress named Eirene. Stourdza says (p.
> > 281) of Alexios III and his siblings: "enfants naturels d'une autre Irene".
> >
> > This means that the woman you show as number 225 was not the mother of
> > number 112, and that all of her ancestry is lost to his descendants.
> > Unless you have an additional source which you haven't mentioned here.
> >
> >
> > William Addams Reitwiesner
> >
> >
> > "Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
>
> You are quite right. These were the only two sources upon which I
> relied for information about generations four through ten. This includes
> the parentage of Alexios III.
>
> My attention surely wandered when scanning these entries. I can see
> how I missed the specification in Sturdza, p. 281, given the way it was
> formatted. But my error in reading the entry in ES ii, 176 is harder to
> fathom. Perhaps you noticed that I even transcribed the word "ungultig"
> (which I translated as "invalidated"), but applied it to the first
> marriage, to Eirene Palaiologina, rather than to the second, unknown,
> Eirene.
>
> In any event, as you suggest, this cuts generation sixteen down to
> the single occupant, Prisca of Hungary.

Alan, I'm sorry to report that none of your lines from Prisca to Charlemagne is
supported by Dr. Herbert v. Stoyan's online database... However, I found this on the
ancestors of #6 Rudolf von Rheinfelden:

1. Charlemagne
2. Peppin of Italy
3. Bernhard of Italy
4. Count Peppin
5. Heribert I, Count of Vermandois
6. Kunigunde? of Vermandois, d.aft. 943; m. Udo I, Count in Oberlahngau
7. Konrad II, Duke of Schwaben, d. 20.8.997; m. Judith im Marchthal
8. Konrad (III), Count in Ortenau, d. 24.11.994; m. Beatrix of Lorraine?
9. Kuno, Count of Rheinfelden, d. ca. 1024; m. ? of Burgundy
10. Rudolf of Rheinfelden; m. Adelheid of Torino
11. Adelheid of Rheinfelden; m. Lazslo of Hungary
12. Prisca of Hungary

And now, let's just wait for someone to tear this appart to....... :)

FHJ

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