Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-03 > 0889152053

From: Billye D. Jackson< >
Subject: Sources: Ref's/Royal/Medieval/Colonial American
Date: 5 Mar 1998 18:40:53 -0800

Good evening to the Gen Med Group,

August of 1997 I decided to put together as much of a complete lisitng
of the various messages I’d intercepted about which books and sources to
use for searching out ancient lineages. To this end, I have now
completed this information.

The second batch below is a compilation of information on Genealogical
Medieval Internet List Group, snipped to meet our needs. The first is a
worksheet for a Colonial Dames Seventeenth Century workshop, from which
sources they work to prove Armorial Ancestors. I haven’t gotten
permission from the CD17 list compiler to put her name on the internet,
but I will give her credit if she says I can, meanwhile since it was
just a worksheet handout, I believe it will be ok to post the content.
It was stressed that no book sources were 100% accurate but some were,
more than others.

From what I can gather, the medieval period covers time spans from
roughly 800 to 1500’s, but varies according to the authority.

I hope neither group is offended that I have combined all their
information. I needed it for my own purposes and thought it worth
sharing with everyone. I take no credit any of work of the list, I just
retyped some of it and hope I have it correctly entered. Please correct
me if you want to. I hope the grouped information may help someone
else, as it has helped me.

Much thanks to all of you who had a part in the discussions, for
advancing the research for all us who still struggle to find the right
book, and wonder if it’s a reliable one, or just useful. I know other
neophytes besides myself thank you one and all, for the education we get
from this list.

Billye D. Jackson. Victoria County Genealogical Society-Computer Support
Group. Victoria, Texas. March 1998
<mailto:> March 1998
[The following will be taken directly from the May 1996 handout]

Colonial Dames of the Seventeenth Century:

1. Weis, Frederick Ancestral Roots of 60 Colonists
2. Weis, Frederick Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists
3. Weis, Frederick Magna Charta Sureties, 1215
4. Burke’s The GeneralArmory of England, Scotland, Ireland & Wales
5. Burke’s Irish Family Records
6. Burke’s Genealogical & Heraldic History of Landed Gentry
7. Burke’s Peerage & Baronetage
8. Burke’s Amerian Families with British Ancestry
9. Burke’s Prominent Families of U.S.
10. Burke’s Family Records
11. Coggehsall, Robert Ancestors & Kin
12. Riestap, J.B. Armorial General, 2 Vol.
13. Rolland, V. Illustrations
14. MacKenzie, George Colonial Families of the U.S.A., 7 Vol
15. Cokayne, George The Complete Peerage, 6 Vol. {and comes in a 13 Vol.
16. Gibbs, Vicary The Complete Peerage, 13 Vol.
17. Sheppard, Walter L. Descendants of the Illegitimate Sons & Daughters
of Kings of
Britain-Lineage Book
18. Franklyn, Julian Heraldry
19. Kimber, E. Baronetage of England, 4 Vol.
20. Taute, Anne Kings & Queens of Great Britain: A Genealogical Chart
Showing their
Descent & Relationships
21. Louda, Jiri Heraldry of the Royal Families of Europe
22. Moncreiff, Iain Royal Highness: Ancestry of the Royal Child
23. Morarity, George The Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III & Queen
24. Papworth, John Ordinary of British Armorials
25. Given-Wilson, Chris The Royal Bastards of Medieval England
26. Sherman, Robert Mayflower Families Through 5 Generations, 2 Vols.
27. Dennys, Rodney Heraldry & the Heralds
28. Fox-Davies, Arthur A Complete Guide to Heraldry
29. Fox-Davies, Arthur Armorial Families
30. Shaw, William The Knights of England
31. Foster, Joseph The Dictionary of Heraldry
32. Foster, Joseph Some Feudal Coats of Arms
33. Roberts, Gary B. The Royal Descents of 500 Immigrants
34. Buck, J.O. Pedigrees of Some of Emperor Charlemagne’s Descendants,
Vol. II & III
35. Ziber, Eugene Heraldry in America
36. Bye, Arthur E. Magna Charta, King John & the Barons
37. Harlein Society Visitations of Shires (Great Britain)
38. British Biography Dictionary of National Biography, 22 Vol.
39. Faris, David Plantagenet & Ancestry of 17th Century Colonists
41. Wurts, John S. Magna Charta, Series 8 Vol.
42. Browning,Charles H. Americans of Royal Descent
43. Browning,Charles H. Magna Charta Barons
44. Virkus Compendium of American Genealogy
45. Jordan Your Family Tree
46. Turton, Wh. H. Plantagenet Ancestry
47. Crozier, William General Armory
48. Crozier, William Virginai Heraldica
49. Hobby Magazine At the Sign of the Crest (various family names)
50. Burke’s Genealogical History of Dormant, Abeyant, Forfeited &
Escinct Peerages
of the British Empire
51. Burke’s Extinct & Dormant Baronetcies
52. (I missed name) A Dictionary of Arms
[53. Du’chess/Cleveland The Battle Abbey Roll, with Some Account of the
Norman Lineages
{this one was not on the list from CD17} ]

Comments on the various books above:
1. Used heavily. Go by line #, not page #. Gives lineages, must use
other to find arms.
11. Well done, good sources, gives gen.# and Coats of Arms for different
32. Family name & description. Good to know shire & county. Accurate,
but no dates.
33. Good. Used a lot.
34. Vol. 1 has some errors, other two are ok. Good, & easy to use.
39. Difficult to figure out, but good. Can get it from AGLL , new
1996. He hopes to replace F. Weis.

Hints from CD17 offiices:
If your Primary or Supplemental immigrant/colonial ancestor appears on
either the “New England Historic Genealogical Society’s Roll of Arms
Index” (NEGHS) or the “Order of Americans of Armorial Ancestry Index”
(OAAA), then it is not necessary to further document your line in order
to complete a COA. However you may wish to do this regardless, to show
the relationships and learn to whom the COA was awarded.

Family genealogies must be well documented if used. In addition to your
proof pages, please photocopy and incllude the title page, as well as
the bibliography pages citing the compiler’s sources and references.

Always put the name of the county (if given) after an individual’s name
to help distinguish him or her from others with the same name. (I.E.
John doe of Surrey Co. And John Doe of Derbyshire)

It also helps to put d/o [daughter of John Doe] in case you decide to
branch off the line later at that pont to continue the lineage on the
wife’s side. The same can also apply for the husband as s/o John Doe for
“son of John Doe”. You can branch off at any point on a lineage to
pursue different Armigers; just be sure to watch you generation numbers
Fill in as much information as possible on each generation regarding
names, dates, and places.


JKent10581 <> wrote in article
> In a message dated 98-03-04 19:58:15 EST,
> For those of you who want to know what some of these reference
books are
here is a good list. Print this out on your printer and then you can
back to it when you want to check your library's holdings.<snip>

> Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
> AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
> [Pres. # : page].
> BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
> BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
> BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
> BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
> EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I,
> EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol
> [page].
> EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
> [page].
> F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
> W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.

>Here are some that I have listed on my computer.
> They don't give the relevant time periods. Most are concerned with the

> 1300-1400, though many go beyond this period. I will try to get more
> details to you later. A list of main resources would be a boon to all
> researchers.
> 1. Collectanea Topographica Genealogica
> 2. Inquisitions and Assessments relating to Feudal Aids with other
> analogous documents preserved in the public record office AD. 1284 -
> 1431
> 3. Feudal Aids
> 4. Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem and other analogous documents
> preserved in the public record office
> 5. Calendar of Inquisitions Miscellaneous and other analogous
> preserved in the public record office
> 6. Calendar of Charter Rolls and other analogous documents preserved
> the public record office
> 7.Calendar of Fine Rolls and other analogous documents preserved in
> public record office
> 8.Calendar of Close Rolls and other analogous documents preserved in
> public record office
> 9.Calendar of Patent Rolls and other analogous documents preserved in
> the public record office
> 10. Palatinate of Chester
> 11. The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and

> the United Kingdom by G.E.C. edited by Gibbs.
> 12. The Black Prince's Register
> 13. The Manors of Suffolk by W.A. Copinger
> 14. Sussex Archaeological Collections
> 15. History of Dorset by Hutchins
> 16. Ormerod "Chershire"
> 17. Blomefields Norfolk
> 18.The Victoria County History Series (of the Counties of England)
> 19.The Dictionary of National Biography
> Paul Mackenzie
> 5/51 Fennell St.
> Paramatta
> Australia

Subject: Re: Waters' Genealogical Gleanings
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 1997 12:30:08 -0700
To: Adrian Channing
References: Adrian Channing wrote:
> > I read that Genealogical Gleanings in England by Henry F Waters
> pages) originally printed in 1907 has just been reprinted by
> Company, 200 East Eager Street, Baltimore at $115.
> Does anyone know of this work and is it reliable?
> Adrian Channing (Surrey, UK)

Yes, it is reliable. Clearfield really has gall charging that much.
It was originally printed in the New England Historical Genealogical
Society Register.
Kay Allen

Subject: Re: Grading sources
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 1997 13:20:37 -0400
From: "Jerry W. Murphy" <>
To: <>

I'm curious as to how the books listed below rate on the source and
aid scale:

"Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants, Vol. I", by

Marcellus Donald R. Von Redlich (1941, reprinted 1996) ISBN

"Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants, Vol. II",
Aileen Lewers Langston & J. Orton Buck, Jr. (1974, reprinted 1988) ISBN

"Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants, Vol. III",
J. Orton Buck & Timothy Field Beard (1978, reprinted 1988) ISBN

"The Plantagenet Encyclopedia, an Alphabetical Guide to 400 years of
History", general editor - Elizabeth Hallam (1996) ISBN 0-517-14081-0

"Chronicle of the Royal Family", editor - Derrik Mercer (1991) ISBN
0582-09006-7 in UK & Ireland, ISBN 1-872031-20-X in Canada

"The Great Historic Families of Scotland"(both volumes), by James Taylor

(1887 & 1889, reprinted 1995) ISBN 0-8063-1464-8

"A History of Russia", by Nicholas V. Riasanovsky (1963) [Library of
Congress Card # 63-7869]

Some of these books are readily available to researchers or
if you prefer, and I thought it might be a good idea to know how they
rate on
the grading scale. Thank you.

Jerry W. Murphy

From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
Stewart Baldwin wrote a piece, dated 5 August 1997, on Grading Sources

that received an abysmal response ---- and that is a bloody shame. It
deserves better.
I have reformatted one long, key paragraph, which should get more
Again, this is Stewart Baldwin's writing:

"Many books can be used in two ways, as a finding aid (i.e., as a source

for clues toward future research), and as a cited source (i.e., a
relationship is claimed with the source given as a reference). The
example mentioned above uses a book as a finding aid.

All but the most pitiful genealogies have at least some value in this
regard, but the usefulness as a finding aid is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT
(apologies for shouting) when grading a book on the correctness of the
relationships given.

In the best of all possible worlds you go to the original documents for
every fact claimed, but this is not always possible or practical. The
grades help people who are unfamiliar with the source to decide how
likely the given source is to be mistaken on the relationships claimed.

(To give an example which has not been discussed before, the Ancestral
File database gets an "F" as a source for genealogical relationships,
because of its completely ridiculous unreliability. However, it is
still a very useful finding aid.

Note that, in this case, the "blame" for the "F" grade does not fall on
the people who made the database, because they are not responsible for
the fact that an item which should never be used as anything but a
finding aid is being used by many as if it were a citable source. On
the other hand, the "blame" for the unreliability of Burke rests
squarely on the shoulders of the authors, as has been discussed here

-------- Stewart Baldwin -----------------
These GRADES we are assigning are for the publication's scholarship and
correctness as to genealogical relationships. The grades have nothing
to do with a publication's value as a finding aid ---- that is
completely separable and distinct.

In my opinion, we should not try to grade publications as finding aids.
That could turn out to be most confusing and meretricious.

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