GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-03 > 0889610457
From: Reedpcgen< >
Subject: St. Ida, Aeda, Oda, Uda, and back to Ida again
Date: 11 Mar 1998 10:00:57 GMT
Thought I'd liven up the fray a little for our Medieval Continental scholars.
There is an occasional Ida here and there in E. S., but it is not a very common
given name. Oda and Ida have separate root origins according to the Oxford
Dictionary of Names, but could Uda be a variation of Ida? There is a large
cluster of females named Ida among the descendants of Count Gottfried/Godfrey
of Lorraine and his wife Mathilde of Sachsen/Saxony. The previous generations
also contain a line of Udas. Perhaps someone could help us with analysis and
interpretation of the following. (There is no easy way to spell this out
without a chart, so I hope you can follow along. Sorry.)
St. Ida, said to be niece of Charlemagne, may possibly be the daughter of his
brother Carloman, according to Settipani in _La prehistoire de Capetiens_, 186.
She would be born about 772, and is said to be ancestor of Sachsen.
Then there is 'known' descent:
1. Count Billung/Billinc married Aeda [IDA, ODA, or UDA?]
2. Their daughter Oda m. Duke Liudolf (d. 866) of Sachsen.
3. Otto of Sachsen (d. 912) m. Hedwig/Hathui
4. Uda of Sachsen (widow of King Zwentibold) m. Gerhard (d. 910) of Upper
5. Uda v. Metz (d. aft. 963) m. Gozelo (d. 943), C. in Ardennergau
6. Gottfried (d. aft. 995) m. Mathilde of Sachsen (=Baldwin III of Flanders)
7. Gozelo I (d. 1044), D. of Upper & Lower Loth., m. N. N.
Then it gets interesting.
7. Gozelo had:
A. Uda/Oda [depending on the source], m. Lambert II (d. 1054), C. of
Louvain/Lowen. Their son Heinrich II m. Adela of Thuringia (see below).
B. Gottfried II, C. of Ardenne (d. 1069). His daughter IDA m. Eustace II (d.
1093), C. of Boulogne, and was grandmother of Matilda of Boulogne--wife of King
Stephen and grandmother of IDA of Boulogne (d. 1216).
C. Regelindis of Lorraine m. Albert II (d. 1063/4), C. of Namur (his maternal
grandfather, Karl, was grandson of Heinrich I "the Fowler", s. of Otto [d.
912]). Their son Albert III, C. of Namur, m. 1065/6 IDA of Sachsen, and they
were parents of Alix/Adelaide of Namur, second wife of Otto II (d. 1125), C. of
Chiny. They had three children: (1) Oda, m. Giselbert, C. of Duras; (2) IDA
(d. 1125) who m. Gottfried I, D. of Brabant (d. 1139) [parents of IDA of
Brabant (d. 1162) who married Arnold II, C. of Cleve]; and (3) Albert, C. of
Chiny, father of IDA of Chiny who married Gobert IV d'Apremont (d. 1191).
8. Back to Heinrich II of Louvaine and Adela of Thuringia. They had two
children pertinent to the subject:
A. Godfrey/Gottfried I, C. of Brabant and Louvain (d. 1140), who m. IDA of
Chiny (above) and was father of IDA (wife of Arnold II of Cleve), and
Adela/Adeliza, who m. (1) King Henry I, and (2) (m. 1138) William d'Aubigny (d.
1176), Earl of Arundel (s. of William d'Aubigny and Maud le Bigod, d. of Roger
B. IDA of Louvain, who m. Baldwin/Baudouin II (d. 1099), C. of Hainault, and
was mother of two children who interest us:
(a) IDA of Hainault, m. (c. 1100) Thomas de Coucy (d. 1130), father of IDE de
Coucy who m. (1) Alard de Chimoy and (2) Bernard d'Orbais (Thomas was father of
Enguerrand de Coucy and a daughter who married Hugues de Gournay by his third
(b) Baldwin III (d. 1120), C. of Hainault, m. Yolande de Gelders, and was
father of IDA/Gertrude of Hainault, who m. Roger III de Toeni (b. c. 1104).
As there is strong evidence that the name IDA occurred among many of the
descendants of Heinrich II of Louvain, it seems there could easily have been
two English women who might be our Countess Ida of Norfolk:
Do we know the names of (1) any of the daughters of Roger III de Toeni and his
wife IDA of Hainault, or (2) the daughters of William d'Aubigny, Earl of
Arundel, and his wife Adeliza, daughter of IDA of Chiny? If either couple had
a daughter named Ida, she would be of a place and position to have married the
Earl of Norfolk (though a dispensation would have been needed for a
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