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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-08 > 0902018084


From: Richard Borthwick< >
Subject: Re: MORE THAN ONE JUTTA OF SAXONY?
Date: 1 Aug 1998 17:34:44 -0700


At 10:56 PM 1/08/98 +0200, you wrote:
>
>
>Richard Borthwick wrote:
>
>> At 05:11 PM 1/08/98 +0200, you wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >Henry Soszynski wrote:
>> >
>> >> At 18:15 30/07/98 +0200, wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >-
>> >> >
>> >> >Richard Borthwick wrote to me:
>> >> >"A thought. Jutta (I) married first in 1239 and was born at the earliest
>> >> >1222/23. She would have been 16 in 1239. If she was born after 1226
(Agnes
>> >> >(I)'s year of death Jutta would have been 12 or younger at her marriage.
>> >> >Jutta (II) was married in 1255 which almost certainly makes Agnes
(II) her
>> >> >mother. While it is well attested that two living siblings might be given
>> >> >the same name it was not all that common for them to be full siblings. On
>> >> >these grounds I think it very probable (as distinct from merely possible)
>> >> >that Jutta was daughter of Agnes (I). What do you think?"
>> >> It seems fairly certain to me that Jutta I was born 1223 and md Erik
in 1239
>> >> and by him was mother of Ingeborg b.1244 Jutta b.1246 and Agnes b.1249
>> >> amongst others, after his death she married 1251 Burchard VII Burgrave of
>> >> Magdeburg +1306, the chronolgy fits but I smell a fish.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Where did you see these exact years of birth for the children of Erik and
>> Jutta?
>> >I have Ingeborg born c. 1244, but as far as I can remember from Brenner:
>> >Nachkommen Gorm des Alten, it was (irritatingly) many of the children that
>> had no
>> >age.
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> >The Jutta in whom I am interested, married the Danish king Erik (II)
>> >> >Plovpenning 1216-1257. Jutta married him 1239, but we don't know when
most
>> >> >of her children was born. We have lots of examples of child marriages in
>> >> >royal families - they could have been married for a while before they had
>> >> >any children.
>> >> >
>> >> >Jutta 2. (about 1257?) married Ct Burchard VII von Magdeburg.
>> >> Jutta 2 (dau of the 2nd wife) bc1240 md c1255 Johann I Margrave of
>> >> Brandenburg-Stendahl.
>> >> Hopefully someone can stratighten this out for us.
>> >>
>> >
>> >I remember somewhere, perhaps in the ES, to have seen this mysterious Jutta
>> (II)
>> >of Saxony married to the mentioned Johann I of Brandenburg-Stendahl, but I
>> don't
>> >think she was listed as the daughter of Albrecht I of Saxony. Have anybody
>> >ACTUALLY seen that in the ES (or anywhere else?)
>> >
>> Yes she is listed as a dau. of Albrecht I in ES I:68. However in ES I:69.I
>> in the entry on Johann I margrave of Brandenburg-Stendal she is said to be
>> dau. of Abrecht II duke of Saxe-Wittenberg. This latter entry has to be a
>> mistake since I:82 does not give Albrecht II a dau. Jutta. Also 68 & 69.I
>> have Jutta dead by 1267 but Albrecht II of S-W did not marry until 1273 some
>> 6 or more years after Jutta's death. She and Jutta (I) were (half-)sisters
>> of Albrecht II of S-W according to ES I:68.
>>
>> Richard
>>
>
>Are we talking about ES NEUE FOLGE here?

Yes. Edited by D Schwennicke & published in Marburg in 1980.

Because if the above is from the older
>series, there might have been changes. And, as I said earlier:
>
>1) I didn't see that ES Neue Folge said which children belonged to which
wife of
>Albrecht I, Agnes I or Agnes II. Usually it has a number attached to the
children if
>they have different mothers. In this case I have interpreted the lack of
numbers as
>meaning that the ES is not sure of what is correct, because it hasn't got
any year
>of birth for the children, either.

You are correct it does not indicate which child belongs to which mother. My
original comment at the start of this string was a speculation about whether
Jutta (I) was the dau. of Agnes (I) or (II). The speculation arose precisely
because ES I:68 gave no indications of maternity.

>
>2) I don't remember seeing any second Jutta among Albrecht's children. I
think I
>would have remembered.

I have the text in front of me. ES I:68, fourth line from the bottom of the
table. 'Jutta 1.' begins the 2nd entry from the left hand side of the page
and 'Jutta 2.' begins the 5th such entry. The line contains ten entries in
all and this line it is connected by a vertical line to any entry on the
sixth line from the bottom of the table beginning with the words 'Albrecht
I. Herzog von Sachsen'.
>
>If we are talking about the same books, then I'll shut my mouth on this
issue until
>I have had the chance to re-read the books in question.
>
>sab
>
>
>> >> >
>> >> >As far as I can remember, Europeische Stammtafeln doesn't have more
than one
>> >> >Jutta as the daughter of Albrecht I of Saxony, but maybe I am wrong?
Anyway,
>> >> >even if he had two children of that name, that doesn't nescesarily
mean they
>> >> >had different mothers. I have many examples of people giving their
children
>> >> >the same name - in one and the same marriage - because they would be sure
>> >> >that a specific name survived in the family.
>> >> >
>> >> >Svein Arnolf Bjorndal
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> Cheers,Henry
>> >
>> > sab
>> >
>> >--
>> >-
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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