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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-02 > 0918308447


From: Adrian Channing< >
Subject: Re: Ida was Pateshull, Grandison, Tregoz, etc. {Parts 2 and 3}
Date: 6 Feb 1999 05:40:47 -0800


Paul,

Thanks for you interesting message.

Note that I was wrong when I stated that Ida Bigod had been ruled out ruled
out as the mother of William Longespee, as pointed out by a subsequent
message.

Your information fits in, and adds to the information I have collected

I presume the Roger de Clifford you mention was the father of Robert 1st
Baron. I don't know what relationship he was to Walter de Clifford (who m
Margaret supposed dau of Llewelyn), perhaps a brother?

In a previous e-mail message it was stated that there was an un-named
brother of William Longespee (III) and who dsp, from your information this
is perhaps the Richard you mention.

I have been given the following information, not verified by me:

Ralph de Fay of Poitou, kinsman of Queen Eleanor, held 3 knights fees in
Bramley, Surrey (Pipe Rolls 1210/2) of the Honour of Dudley.
]
Ralph de Fay (Excerptae. Rot. Fin 1.25) = Beatrice, d. of Stephen de
Turnham (2nd husband Hugh de Plaiz)

and

Bramley, in the Blackheath Hundreds of Surrey, was given by Henry II to
Ralph de Fay who was dispossessed during the war between the king and
Prince Henry. King John granted it to Ralph, son of the above, whose son
John de Fay held it in 1223 . He died in 1241 and the manor was divided
between his 2 sister, Maude de Clere and Phillipa de Fay who had Bramley -
her husband was William Neville whose daughter Beatrice married William
Wintershill, lord of Wintershull (Winter's Hall ) in Bramley.

Maud's moiety (she died in 1250) passed to her daughter Alice and then to
Alice's daughter Agatha and William Longespee (Earl of Salisbury); their
daughter Alice was wife of Richard Breus who granted it in 1266 to Maud
Longespee. In 1271 Richard and Alice Breus conveyed it to William Breus
and wife Mary in exchange for Akenham, Suffolk. Mary died in 1236, her
grandson Thomas d. 1396 (sp) when it descended to George Breus, son of
John (brother of Thomas de Breus). George died 1418 and the Cookseys
became heirs of Agnes, sister of George de Breus. Cooksey d. 1445/6 when it
passed to his widow Alice and then to Hugh Cooksey's sister, Joyce
Beauchamp and from her to the Winters of Wych.

This seems to have come from "History of Surrey" by H E Malden. The account
appears to be a little muddled, but also may contain valuable information.

There is still a "Wintershall" manor just outside Bramley, not far from me
although I have not been in it, and don't know how old it is. Perhaps
Bramley manor was at the site of what was the Bramley Grange Hotel,
unfortunately recently burned to the ground, set fire to by a disgruntled
chef!

regards Adrian

Adrian (Surrey, UK)

> Adrian Channing wrote:
>
> > taf wrote
> > >
> > > This identification of "Countess Ida", mother of William Longespee,
with
> > > the Countess of Bolougne of that name was suggested by Evans, but the
> > > last time she was discussed in this group someone (pcr or Nat
Taylor?)
> > > presented chronological data that made it pretty unlikely. From what
I
> > > have seen here and elsewhere, the future wife of the Earl of Norfolk
is
> > > the only nominated candidate that matches what little we know. (This
> > > identification was published, without discussion in Roberts' book on
> > > royal descents, based on unpublished work of Douglas Richardson.)
> > >
> >
> > I rather thought that the Gen-Medieval discussions on Ida Bigod
countess of
> > Norfolk had also ruled her out as mother of William Longespee?
> >
> > My money is that Countess Ida was connected to the Giffard family
> >
> > Complete Peerage Vol V page 642 part of note c):
> >
> > QUOTE with my remarks in square brackets:
> > "John [Giffard b bfr 1233 died 29 May 1299] and Maud, [that is Maud de
> > Clifford] ] and her 1st husband William Lungespee, [the III, g-son of
> > William Longespee I] were all descended from Richard fitz Ponce [the
> > progenitor of the Cliffords]. Why John Giffard should have referred to
> > himself as being of the race of Le Lungespee - as in the proof of age
> > mentioned above [in CP] he is said to have done - is not explicable;
> > unless, indeed the sobriquet was derived from the family of Clifford."
> > UNQUOTE
> >
> > But the argument that the term "Le Lungespee" came from the Clifford
family
> > seems to be based on the assumption that William Longespee's mother was
> > Maud/Rosamund Clifford. If that m. no longer holds and William
Longespee
> > was not descended from the Cliffords, then an explanation of the use of
> > this term could be that William I's mother was of the same race of Le
> > Lungespee as John Giffard.
> >
> > I don't know if it is of any relevance, but it would be easy to mistake
> > Gliffard for Clifford in a written document.
> >
>
Paul replied
>
> I have a passing interest in this line, and this has vexed me. The
following
> may be of some interest to you. Complete Peerage also states under John
de
> Breuse of Glasbury, co. Brecon supposedly son of Margaret, dau of
Llewelyn ap
> Iowerth
> that
> QUOTE
> He had disputes about this manor(on the borders of cos. Brecon and
Radnor) with
>
> Roger de Clifford in 1272, and with John Giffard of Brimpsfield and Maud
his
> wife( which Maud, on the above hypothesis, was his (John de Breuse) half
> sister, being daugther of Margaret above-named, by her 2nd Husband,
Walter de
> Clifford). John and Maud conceded the manor to him and his heirs male in
1275,
> and Rogers claim was settled for 100 marks of silver. (Cria Regis, roll
no.
> 205, mm. 5 d, 6 d, 15; Coram Rege, Mich. 3-4 Edw 1, m. 41, Mich. 4-5 Edw.
1, m.
> 17 Mich. 5-6 Edw. 1, m. 8)
> UNQUOTE
>
> This John de Breuse had also a brother Richard de Breuse who married
Alice,
> widow of Richard LUNGESPEYE. D.G. Elwes had no proof but suggested this
> LUNGESPEYE was brother to
> William LUNGESPEYE [ the III, g-son of William Longespee I]
>
>
> D.G. Elwes also cites the following
>
> 1261
> Inq. p.m. 46 Hen 111, No. 1 on Richard Langespeye deceased. The writ
being
> dated 27 Dec, 46 Hen 111[1261]
> Inquisition-John de Fay held in chief of the King the manor of Brumleyle
> Surrey, by the service of three knight's fees. After the death of said
John,
> the manor descended to his two sisters, to wit, Maltida and Philippia,
and it
> was divided between them. Of the aforesaid Maltida there issued a
daughter, by
> the name of Agatha, who had issue Alice who was the wife of Richard
Langespey;
> and the said Richard and Alice held a moiety of the said manor of
Brumlelie in
> chief of the King by service of one knight's fee and a half.
> De Braose Family, D.G.C. Elwes
>
>
> 1264
> Coram Rege, 49 Hen 111, m. ii
> Trial between Maltida Langespeye and Richard de Breus and Alice his wife
which
> settles the date of Richard and Alice's marriage as being between the
years 46
> and 49 Hen 111 (1261-1264). Maltida sues Richard and Alice for ejecting
her men
> from the manors of Stradefford, Stinton, Bromleigh, Lutheburg,
Sevelington,
> which she had to farm. The defendants made many defaults and the Sheriff
was
> ordered to bring them up in Hilary Term.
> De Braose Family, D.G.C. Elwes
>
> 1272
> A fine Hen 56 No. 70, between Richard de Breous and Alice his wife, and
John
> Giffard and Maltida his wife, as to the manors of Akenham, Whitingham,
> Brumleigh, Stradbrok, Clopton, Asketon, Stynton, Lubure, and Syvelyngton
in
> cos. Suffolk, York, Lincoln, Norfolk, and Surrey. They are the right of
Alice;
> and Richard and Alice grant Asketon and Stinton to John Giffard and wife,
for
> life of the said Maltida.
> De Braose Family, D.G.C. Elwes

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