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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-03 > 0920478023


From: Richard Borthwick <>
Subject: Re: Welfings - the early years...
Date: Thu, 04 Mar 1999 00:20:23 +0800


At 05:01 PM 1/03/99 GMT, you wrote:
>I have a couple of questions to ask the list:
>
>I have registred a Warin von Althoff, count in Thurgau 754-775 and
>Linzgau 764 with the following ancestry:
>
>1. Ansebert, d. 570. Lord of Mosel, Margraf of Schelde.
>2. Gertrude, d. 655. m. Richimer, a lord in Francia
>3. Gerberga m. Ega a major domus in France in the time of Dagobert I.
> d. 646.
>4. Erkenbald, major domus with king Clodevek II in France 646, d. 661.
> m. Leudefinda.
>5. Lendisius, major domus with king Teoderic III, d. ca 680.
>6. Ethic/Athic Alderic became duke in Elsass and d. 720. His spouse,
> Bersvinda, was sister of kong Childeric II's spouse
> Bilihilde/Bildehilde.
>7. Adalbert, duke in Elsass
>8. Eberhard, duke in Elsass
>9. Warin.
>
>Following I have Warin as father of:
>
>Isenbrand von Althoff, count in Thurgau. At Charlemagnes court in 780,
>
>father of:
>Welf von Althoff, count in Bayern. Progenitor of the "Welfings".
>
>In a posting on 12. jun 1998 (Gerberga, wife of Foulques II "the Good"
>of Anjou), Alan B. Wilson mention a Warin, Count of Chalon (828) and
>Macon (835). He is listed as a son of Isembhard, Count in Thurgau,
>born 750, died 806.
>
>Is there a possibility that this Isembhard is identic to Isenbrand,
>and that Warin of Chalon/Macon was named after his grandfather?
>
>Also, is the listed ancestry of Warin historic, or just fantasy?
>
Some of the characters you list certainly existed, but I would hazard a
guess that the affiliations are highly speculative. Welf's ancestry is, as
far as I know, unknown. K Jordan in *Heinrich der Loewe* (1980 [1979])
thinks that count Ruthard in the Argengau (d.<790) is possibly the father
of count Welf (d.<825). I recall imperfectly an essay by Chaume on the
Isembard/Warin group which (I think) seeks to link them to the Chalon
group, but the Welfings don't (I think) come into it. The basic modern work
on the Welfings is Tellenbach's "Exkurs ueber die aeltesten Welfen im West-
und Ostfrankenreich" but nothing much is said about Welf's ancestry, its
main concern are the immediate descendants.

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