Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-08 > 0933620654

From: Kay Allen AG <>
Subject: Re: Odard de Dutton
Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1999 12:04:14 -0700

This is the post to which I was referring when I sent my derogatory post
concerning Cope.

Comments interspersed.

Jim Stevens wrote:
> >Who was Odard de Dutton, ancestor, I believe, of the Despencers and of the
> >Warburton family of Arley. Older copies of Burke's Landed Gentry give a
> >descent (under Warburton of Arley) from one of the earlier Dukes of Normandy,
> >making the family
> >patrilineal descendants of Rollo. I have also read that he was a member of the
> >d'Avranches family or that he sprang from a Norman baronial house. Does anyone
> >know the latest and/or most likely theory?
> >Thank you,
> >Mark
> >From Odard's notes on my website:
> Extracted from "Genealogy of the Dutton family of Pennsylvania" compiled by
> Gilbert Cope, printed in 1871 (pp. 12-13):
> Odard or Udard, sometimes also written Hodard and Hudard, came into
> England with WILLIAM THE CONQUERER, and seated himself at Dutton, a good

I do not believe that Odard was a "companion"
> part of wherof Hugh Lupus, Earl of Chester [Hugh of Avranches, Earl of
> Chester (RIN 3101)], gave unto him as you have heard out of Doomsday-book.
> . According to "Burke's Landed Gentry", p.1508: "These six
> . brothers [including Odard] accompanied their uncle, Hugh
> . Lupus into England, in the train of WILLIAM THE CONQUERER,
> . their great-uncle; and on the establishment of the Norman
> . power, had various estates and honors conferred upon them."
> The ancient Roll of the Barons of Halton saith that with Hugh, Earl of
> Chester, came one Nigeil, a nobleman; and with Nigeil came five bretheren
> to wit: Hudard, Edard, Wolmere, Horswyne, and Wolfaith . . . and unto
> Hudard the same Nigeil gave Weston and Great Aston . . . and from this
> Hudard came all the Duttons. [Cope goes on to expess doubt as to whether
> the five brothers listed above were actually Nigeil's brothers.]
> Cope mentions that in 1665 an heirloom called "Hudard's sword" was then
> in the custody of Lady Elinour Viscountess Kilmorey, sole dau. and heir of
> Thomas Dutton of Dutton.

Starting with the reference to the ancient roll to this point is an
almost verbatim quote from Ormerod. If Cope cites Ormerod, then Mr.
Stevens should cite Cope as citing Ormerod and not give the impression
that Mr. Cope is a plagerist.
> Regarding Odard's parentage, Cope says that "Burke's Landed Gentry",
> p.1508, cited above, calls him the son of WILLIAM, COUNT OF EU (RIN 3830)
> and his second wife Jeanne, niece of Hugh of Avranches, Earl of Chester.
> This would give him a descent from RICHARD I, DUKE OF NORMANDY (RIN 1308).
> Cope states that another source, "Lyson's Magna Britannia", calls Odard the
> son of Yvron, Viscount of Constantine.

That should be Contentin. Also does Mr. Cope give his feelings about the
parentage as stated in Burke and Lyson?

If he has taken these two sources as probable then he is not as good as
he should have been, as even back then, they should have had a feel that
Burke was not truatworthy.
> I do not beleive that current scholarly opinion gives much weight to the
> descent from Duke Richard.

What does Mr. Cope say, specifically?

If he has not questioned these two sources, then I must say he is
tarnished. Even the idols can have feet of clay. Donald Lines
Jacobus, my personal genealogical hero, has not come off too well in the
Corbet-Mallory matter. Perhaps incompetent is too strong, but as he is
cited here, it doesn't look good. If this citation is not an accurate
reflection of Mr. Cope's work, then the citation should be reworked so
that it ,ore accurately portrays Mr. Cope's views.

Kay Allen AG
> Odard is # 5274 in the database at my website.
> Today is the first day of the rest of your life ! () Jim
> Visit my genealogy website at

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