GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-10 > 0940208690


From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
Subject: Re: Llewelyn's wives - a summary
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1999 15:04:50 -1000


Hmmmm, Finton, at this point a gentleman would do the right thing and
simply swim out to sea tonight --- without an inner tube.

When WILL you learn to stop shooting off your mouth like that?
--

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas
--

"Non nobis, Domine, non nobis, sed Nomini Tuo da gloriam, propter
misericordiam Tuam et veritatem Tuam." Henry V, [1387-1422] King of
England --- Ordered it to be sung by his prelates and chaplains ---
after the Battle of Agincourt, 25 Oct 1415, --- while every able-bodied
man in his victorious army knelt, on the ground. [Psalm CXV, Verse I]

<> wrote in message
news:7udrck$dhg$1@agate-ether.berkeley.edu...
| wrote:
| <snip>
| : strikes me as significant. Why? Because if the family had known
that
| : Gwenllian was the author--combined with her heroic demise--it
appears to me
| : that the name could be something quite special, not something
bestowed on the
| : child of a concubine.
|
| : When we deal with a name like David, it is quite common. Gwenllian,
on the
| : other hand, is not so commonly recorded, though one of her sons also
married
| : a woman named Gwennlian.
|
| Regardless of the validity of other assertions and claims, this
particular
| one is easily addressed in an objective manner.
|
| The earliest period from which we have a good selection of
statistically
| valid samples of personal names from Wales is the late 13th century,
when
| the Lay Subsidy of 1292/3 and a variety of land surveys are available.
|
| In the Lay Subsidy records from Merioneth, the name "Gwenllian"
represents
| 12% of all feminine given names appearing in the record, while the
name
| "David" represents 9% of all masculine given names appearing there.
(This
| includes given names appearing in patronyms.) In the Lay Subsidy
records
| from Monmouth and the Three-Castles region, "Gwenllian" represents 6%
of
| feminine given names, while "David" represents 9% of masculine given
| names. In Lay Subsidy records for Lleyn, "Gwenllian" does not appear,
| while "David" represents 10% of men's names. In the Lay Subsidy
records
| for Nefyn, "Gwenllian" comes in at 29% (!), while "David" is
competitive
| at 22%. In the 1315 survey of Bromfield and Yale, "Gwenllian"
represents
| 9% of women's names, while "David" represents 11% of men's names.
Among
| Aberystwyth burgesses in 1300, "Gwenllian" represents 11% of women's
names
| and "David" 11% of men's names. That's pretty much all the early
sample
| populations I have with enough women's data to be useful.
|
| In summary:
| Gwenllian David
| Mer. 12% 9%
| Mon. 6% 9%
| Lleyn 0% 10%
| Nefyn 29% 22%
| B&Y 9% 11%
| Aber 11% 11%
|
| In other words, when examined as a proportion of the available data,
the
| two names are remarkably equivalent in popularity. The superficial
| impression of "David" being much more common than "Gwenllian" derives
| primarily from the fact that the ratio of women to men appearing in
| these records ranges from 1:10 at _best_ to essentially non-existant
at
| worst.
|
| Further, the evidence suggests that -- far from being a rare and
| specially-bestowed name in the medieval period -- "Gwenllian" was a
very
| common and widespread name in medieval Wales. Therefore, any arguments
| based on the alleged uncommonness of the name should be re-examined.
In
| particular, the argument that the reason the name reoccurs frequently
in a
| particular family can be connected with a famous bearer of the name in
| that line pretty much dissolves when you discover that the name
reoccurs
| requently in _many_ Welsh families in that period.
|
| --
| *********************************************************
| Heather Rose Jones
| **********************************************************

This thread: