Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-11 > 0942111652

Subject: Re: [Fwd: Re: Balliols/Comyns]
Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 20:40:52 -0500

Kotliar wrote:
> mike stone wrote:
> > >From: (JOHN P. RAVILIOUS)
> >
> > > John _the Red_ Comyn, lord of Badenoch and nephew of John I (slain
> > >by Robert _the_ Bruce in 1306) did leave legitimate issue:
> > >
> >
> > >1. Joan, married to David of Strathbogie, Earl of Athol (son
> > > of John, Earl of Athol, executed by Edward I with some
> > > particularly Angevin humor in 1306).
> >
> > >David died in 1326,
> > > but not before the two produced at least two sons (David
> > > and Aymer), through whom they are ancestors of several
> > > notable families (including branchs of the le Scropes,
> > > the Eures, Pudseys, etc.).
> >
> > Many thanks.
> >
> > I should be particularly interested in descendants of the elder son, as his
> > heir-general is of course the rightful King of *England* as well as
> > Scotland.Being the lineal descendant of Margaret of Wessex he/she should of
> > course take precedence over the spawn of that loose-living Falaise washerwoman
> >
> > --
> > Mike Stone - Peterborough England
> >
> > "The English people are like the English beer.
> >
> > Froth on top, dregs at the bottom, the middle excellent" - Voltaire
> I am descended from Alexander Comyn, John Comyn's uncle. So there are certainly
> lots of Comyn descendants lurking about. I make no claim to the Scottish throne
> even in the hypothetical as there are certainly many thousands of Comyn
> descendants with more senior claims. (May be even a million better claims, who
> knows). Of course, birth alone does not make one the rightful monarch of
> England and Scotland. An Act of Parliament, or since Scotland has its own
> parliament now, acts of both parliaments I would assume would be required to
> change the succession. The British monarchy is a constitutional rather than an
> absolute monarchy and the right to succession lies in the power of the
> legislature and not merely the womb. It also helps to win the war (as in the
> Hanover /Stuart clash of arms). By act of Parliament, Charles could for example
> be given the boot in the succession in favor of his son. Heck they could make
> Andrew , King if they desired. Primogeniture is a guide to the rightful
> claimant, not an absolute law. For example King Edward abdicated to marry
> Wallace Simpson, but had he attempted to keep the throne, he was told he would
> have been chucked out on his haunches by Parliament.
> Hopefully if Scotland decides to boot the Windsors, they will choose to become a
> Republic and not simply replace one anachronism with another. Hopefully
> Australia will get another chance to boot the Windsors, as soon as the Republican
> majority solves its differences.
> Jay

Monday, November 8, 1999

The following descents from John _the Red_ Comyn are based
primarily on CP (vol. I, pp.304-310 - Earldom of Atholl):

1. John _the Red_ Comyn, lord of Badenoch, slain 1306;
m. Joan de Valence.

1. Joan Comyn, b. ca. 1293, d. 1326.
m. David of Strathbogie, Earl of Athol (forfeited titles
in Scotland 1314, 'restored' by Edward II - his descendants
were summoned over the years to English parliaments by
writs directed "David [de] Strabolgi comiti Athol"). D. 1326

1. David of Strathbogie, Earl of Athol/Lord Strathbogie,
b. 1 Feb 1308/09; slain in combat at Kilblane, 30 Nov.
1335. m. Catherine de Beaumont, dau. of Henry de
Beaumont (titular Earl of Buchan).

1. David of Strathbogie, Earl of Athol/Lord Strathbogie,
b. ca. 1332; d. 10 Oct. 1369. m. Elizabeth Ferrers,
daughter of Henry, 2nd Lord Ferrers of Groby

1. Elizabeth, birthdate uncertain.
m. 1) Sir Thomas Percy (2nd son of 1st Earl of
Northumberland), ca. 1377; he d. 1388

1. Sir Henry Percy, d. 25 Oct. 1432. Spouse

1. Elizabeth, m. 1)before 1432, Thomas Burgh
(other data not in file)

1. Thomas Burgh, born before 1432,
identified as her son and heir.

2. Margery, m. Henry Grey, 6th Lord Grey of
Codnor (no issue beyond Henry Grey, 7th Lord
Grey who d.s.p.)

m. 2) Sir John le Scrope (5th son of Henry,
Lord Scrope of Masham), ca. 1391

1. Elizabeth, m. Sir Thomas Clarell (by whom
several issue and lengthy published descents)

2. Philippa, b. ca. 1361; d. 1395
m. 1) Sir Ralph Percy, 1376 (annulled);
2) John Halsham, of Coombs, co. Sussex

1. John Halsham (descents unknown)

2. Aymer de Athol, m. Mary

1. Isabel, m. Ralph Eure (again, from whom several
lengthy descents

2. John Comyn, son and heir (slain at Bannockburn, 1314)

3. Elizabeth, m. Gilbert Talbot, 2nd Lord Talbot (again, from
whom several lengthy descents, e.g. the Lords Talbot; the
Butlers, Earls of Ormond (from whom, Anne Boleyn, for one))

I have not shown the additional information on the descents down
from the le Scrope/Clarell, Eure or Talbot marriages (which I have only
in part: these are my lines of descent), although anyone interested
should let me know.

I did find the other (Bourbon) information I had mentioned earlier,
which follows (quoting Sir Iain Moncrieffe of that Ilk, from his
excellent, if sometimes theoretical, work, _The Highland Clans_(New
York: C. N. Potter, 1967), p. 121:

"During the long wars that followed [the murder of John _the
Red_ Comyn], King Robert destroyed the Cummins. The Red Cummin's
only son, rightful Lord of Badenoch and chief of the name, was
killed in action against his father's slayer on the field of
Bannockburn. His heiresses carried abroad the family claim to
the Scottish throne: and it is ironical to reflect that when the
exiled Stuarts (heirs of Bruce) fled to refuge in France, the
then heir of Balliol and of the Red Cummin was their host King
Louis XIV himself: today it is the Duke of Parma. The junior
co-heir of the Red Cummin, curiously enough, is the Premier
Baron of England (Lord Mowbray and Stourton), who quarters the
Arms of Cummin and has returned to live in Scotland."

Nemo me impune lacessit.


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