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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-11 > 0942899357


From: Chris Bennett <>
Subject: Re: Pharaonic Gateway
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 04:29:17 GMT


In article <>,
Allan Martens Andersen <@tele.dk> wrote:
> - Hi everybody -
>
> I am looking for a lineage from Charlemagne to the ancient Pharaohs
of
> Egypt, I all ready have the first links, from Charlemagne and
somewhat
> back to Ptolemy XII Auletes,

That means you must claim to have a linkage via Cleopatra, who is the
only child of Ptolemy XII to have any descendants. Extremely
unlikely. Could you outline the first few generations?

who has been claimed to be a Bastard, this
> meaning perhaps that his mother was of an egyptian High Priest
Family,
> (of Ptah in Memphis).

Its usually thought to mean that Auletes was the child of a concubine.
It has been speculated that his mother might have been a noble Egyptian
but there is no evidence on the point. In fact no-one knows what the
term Bastard means in this context. All you can really say for sure is
that his mother was not married after his father's accession to
kingship, which was the normal form of marriage for Ptolemaic kings.
That description would cover the marriage of Cleopatra IV to Ptolemy
IX, for example, which occured before his accession, was opposed by
their mother who later forced a divorce, and resulted in hs father
exiling the couple to Cyprus.

I would like to know how much can actually be said
> about the mother of Auletes, was she really of egyptian extraction,

What we can say is that Ptolemy IX had a son and heir who was eponymous
priest in the dynastic cult in 109 BC. The two previous Ptolemaic
heirs to hold this position had done so for the first time when they
were 8 years old. Therefore it is likely that this heir was born in
117 BC, meaning (i) he was not the biological son of Cleopatra Selene,
Ptolemy IX's wife in 109, whom he had married some time after his
accession in mid 116; and (ii) this heir was born before Ptolemy's own
accession. Its a good bet that this heir was the son of Cleopatra IV,
and that he was the later Ptolemy XII.

and
> then again how much is known about the High Priests of Ptah in
Memphis?

Quite a bit. Psherenptah III married a certain Berenice, who (the
reading of the stele is controversial) may have been, and I think was,
a daughter of Ptolemy VIII. This is the basis on which some scholars
who ought to have known better have guessed that certain holes in the
Ptolemaic family tree could by plugged by female members of the
Memphite family. But there is absolutely no evidence to support such a
theory.

> I have heard that we would be in need of 400 years, to make a point
to
> point genealogy from the mother of Auletes and beck to some of the
old
> High Priests of Ptah in Memphis.

The Ptolmaic HPMs can be traced back to about 330BC. The previous HPMs
of the line of the Libyan kings breaks down c700 BC. There is an
article by David Kelley where he makes some arguments about filling up
the gap. I haven't looked at them all in detail, but the latest
generations at least depends on the interpretation of a genealogical
stele which is very unlikely to be right.

But has there been any serious guesses
> as to the name and parentage of Auletes mother? That is what i would
> really like to know.

Yes. Cleopatra IV. See above, also my paper on the genealogy of the
later Ptolemies in Ancient Society 28 (1997). Sorry she's not Egyptian!

>
> Secondly, I would like to know, if Necho really hed a daugther
Nitocris,
> since he had a sister by that name, the daughter Nitocris of Necho
II.
> may have been married to Nabonidus,

This is a guess made by Raymond Dougherty in 1927. It has no basis
outside of a confused interpretation of a story by Herodotus.

perhaps an ancestor of Andia, one of
> my many ancestors, a concubine of some king of a sort.

This is a wild guess made in the Augustan Society Descents from
Antiquity charts. It has no basis of any kind whatsoever.

I havent got my
> books right by me, and I dont remember. Werent even the concubines of
> royal extraction, I myself think they would be.
>
> Another thing, did Solomon king of Israel have any children with
> descendants by her marriage to the egyptian wife, a daughter of
> Psusennes II. Pharao of Egypt?

No. And she is usually supposed to have been a daughter of Siamun not
Psusennes II.


And by the way, besides from Nitetis who
> actually did exist

Maybe (I think she did). But there are also scholars who think she was
a legend derived from the fact that Saite pharaohs called themselves
sons of the goddess Neith.

some of the Pharaos actualley married their daughters
> or family away to foreign Princes.

There are a couple of such claims in the bible, none with traceable
descents. Otherwise, no such marriages are known.


So it is possible, keep looking, that
> is what I will do!

If you are interested in pharaonic genealogy for its own sake, keep
looking by all means. If however, what you want to do is to establish
your own ancestry then I suggest you keep looking at lines closer to
home.

Chris


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