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From: "Brynjulf Langballe" <>
Subject: Re: ancient scandinavian kings
Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2000 19:19:59 +0100


Sorry, this posting went as personal post to Hvard last night
and not to the group. One more try.

Tuesday, February 22, 2000 9:41 PM Hvard Moe
<> wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 21:25:17 +0100, "Brynjulf Langballe"
> <> wrote:

> >If you as a professional is working with genealogy and completely
> >denies mythical lines then there is no market for you.
>
> I am not, and have never claimed to be, a professional. I am an
> amateur but with a passion for history and genealogy. I have never
> denied the mythical lines either, as you say. As mentioned I have
> several registred in my database. What I _do_ say is that one must
> differ between historical facts and these myths.

I apologize, Hvard, for not being clear. When I used the term "you"
my intention was to express a plural "you" not pointing back to you or
any other spesific person. Actually I even tried to pinpoint my
intention in my next sentence: > >That was some philosophy.<<

> What about several mythical ancestry for the same person? How would
> you sort that out?

You have two interesting examples, Harald Hairfair and the line to Odin.
Before I read your reply I was writing another reply to the list on this
subject.
There I made four examples of 4 legendary figures worth to give a closer
discussion. Your two examples where among them! Bingo! we are certainly
on the same play ground. I pinpointed some problems concerning them
and some possible reasons for the problems. In the first run I have to
point
to my other reply. But I will come back to your examples later.

> > Present research
> >can often recognize individuals in such old lines, both in the beginning
> >and in the end of the line. It gives very little sence rejecting a loose
> >line as mythical. Instead you can contribute to the list by giving
information
> >about each chain and link in the line, and reference to sources.
>
> I am not willing to accept a long list of claimed
> ancestry as historical based on the fact that two people at the ends
> were historical people.

I can not see that we disagree in any way on this subject. My point was
that the oldest figures in such lines could very well be historic persons
and famous heroes. That was actually the reason for later known persons
to trace or in many cases construct a line back to them. Therefore we can
very well have known people in both ends of a legend line. But the part
between can be rather obscure.

> Where in these sources can I find information about "Thorri Snesson
> Gnapi, king of Wendland *about 90" and his alleged g-g-grandfather
> "Rungne Ringisson Hard, king of Jotunheimen *about -50"? I am
> particularly interrested in references for the dating...

You where originaly asking for sources written before year 500. That made
me a little confused because none of the Scandinavian sources are written
that early. With that restriction removed I can recommend "Huldar Saga",
"Saxo Grammaticus", "Chronica Hungarorum", Snorri Sturlasson, and the
"kvads" (poems) "Skaldskaparml", "Lokasanna" and "Grottesang".
These sources are obviously not giving any year anchored chronology.
To get a grasp on the chronology some analyze is needed.

First of all, Saxo seems to have mixed up partial lines from different of
his sources and have made a deck of kings with a gap of 300 years
that should have covered the line of Asa Odin (Wooden). It looks like
he was lacking sources for that period. Second, we need to recognize
Loke (Logi, Loki) and Asa Odin as same person. Third, we need to
recognize Helge Hoddbroddsbane (Hoddbrods killer) as the same
person as Thiatzi (Tjatsi, Trym, "The eagle in Trymheim"). Helge seems
to have been high king of Scandinavia with a leg in Germany. He was
dethrowned and killed by Asa Odin. That released the Big Chimbrian
movement starting in 115 BC, which later struck Rome with panic.
This is well documented in Roman sources. Tacitus' writings about
Arminius and his connections can also give some chronological ideas.

The subject of this discussion is "ancient scandinavian kings". Actually
the dethroned line of Thiatzi from now played a role solely down
on the European continent, until Heidir Nor again established this
dynasty in Norway.

Brynjulf Langballe, Oslo, Norway

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