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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2000-04 > 0956054881


From: "Janet Denham" <>
Subject: Fw: Edmund of York and Isabella of Castille, dec. 1393
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 05:48:01 -0500


Theron: The debate goes on. Check out Leo's most recent contribution from
today. There appears to be a genealogy dating from the late 1500's naming
Margaret Roos as Eleanor's mother. Unfortunately, Leo's source did not name
the specific genealogy cited. Someone must have access to this. Maybe
we'll get a definitive answer yet.
I personally will thank Doug Richardson if he can supply the source to solve
this mystery. Lee Denham


----- Original Message -----
From: THERON L. SMITH <>
To: 'Janet Denham' <>
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 8:37 PM
Subject: RE: Edmund of York and Isabella of Castille, dec. 1393


> Lee:
>
> I enjoyed your's and Leo's comments about whether Elizabeth Touchet was
> daughter of Margaret Roos or Ailenore Holand. I had decided to roll over
> and play dead after the former appeared in Faris 2d Edition. (As you know
> 1st Ed showeed Ailenore (our ancestor) as her mother.
>
> I have the 2d Ed. I will review exactly what they say and report back.
> I have the utmost respect for Leo's conclusions on many subjects.
>
>
> Best regards,Theron Smith
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Janet Denham [SMTP:]
> > Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 9:25 AM
> > To:
> > Subject: Fw: Edmund of York and Isabella of Castille, dec. 1393
> >
> > Leo: Thank you for the comments. I did review all of the archive
> > material
> > I could find last night which seemed to revolve around other of Sir
James
> > Tuchet's and Alianor's
> > possible children. I did not, however, see any information that refuted
> > Alianor Holand
> > as the mother of Elizabeth Tuchet. I am still unclear from what source,
> > if
> > any, that argument actually originated. I will continue to show Alianor
> > in
> > my charts until substantial information is shown to the contrary.
> >
> > My line from Reverend Hawte is as follows:
> >
> > Reverend Hawte Wyatt (c. 1594 - 1638)
> > + Anne Cox md. after 1625/26
> >
> > John Wyatt (1629/30 - c.1666)
> > +Mary Cocke ( - 1653) Dependent on actual year of William's
> > birth,
> > his mother could have been Jane Osborne, 2nd wife of John.
> >
> > William Wyatt (c.1652 - 1686/87)
> > + Rebeckah Kent
> >
> > John Wyatt (4/26/1679 Perquimans Precinct, NC - 12/26/1738 or 1739)
> > + Rachel Calloway
> >
> > Elizabeth Wyatt (c. 1702 - after 1742)
> > + Joseph Oates
> >
> > Jethro Oates (1732 - 1780)
> > + Artesha __________
> >
> > Jesse Oates (1756 - 1831)
> > + Laurahama Stevens
> >
> > Jethro Oates (c. 1785 - 1833)
> > + Piercy Mason
> >
> > Emaline Oates (c. 1811 - aft. 1880)
> > + Edward Alonzo Pennington
> >
> > Mary Elvira Pennington ( 1830 - 1903)
> > + Andrew Jeremiah Reed
> >
> > Frances R. Reed (1858 - 1939)
> > + John Duncan Stewart
> >
> > Frances and John are my 2nd great-grandparents
> >
> > I discovered my link to William Wyatt (1652 - 1687) several years ago
but
> > did not research the line farther. Last year I became aware that
William
> > Wyatt (1652-1687) had been linked to the Reverend Hawte Wyatt and that
the
> > acceptance of that line by the National Society Magna Charta Dames and
> > Barons has been of record since at least 1983. I was able to provide
some
> > additional information and was invited for membership last year. Due to
> > the
> > loss of many early records from Gloucester Co., Va., the link appears to
> > be
> > based on the preponderance of surviving evidence. I have not seen all
of
> > the material on the subject available at the National Society but was
> > informed that William's link to the Reverend is one of the better
> > authenticated lines. William, along with the Oates, Calloway and
Lawrence
> > families left Virginia for political and religious reasons and settled
in
> > Perquimans Precinct, N.C. Caleb Calloway, father of Rachel Calloway
> > Wyatt,
> > signed as witness to the first Will of record in North Carolina. The
> > births, deaths and marriages of this era are preserved in the records of
> > Berkeley Parish.
> >
> > Thanks again for your assistance. Lee Denham
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Leo van de Pas <>
> > To: Janet Denham <>
> > Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 3:10 AM
> > Subject: Re: Edmund of York and Isabella of Castille, dec. 1393
> >
> >
> > > Dear Lee,
> > > I have seen Douglas Richardson making terrible errors and therefor I
> > would
> > > not take his word as the final judgement.
> > > If you have that Rev. Hawte Wyatt as an ancestor you have some
wonderful
> > > lines. I hope you can open the attachment.
> > > Leo
> > > PS. I would love to see your line to him. :-)
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Janet Denham <>
> > > To: <>
> > > Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 2:54 PM
> > > Subject: Fw: Edmund of York and Isabella of Castille, dec. 1393
> > >
> > >
> > > > Leo: Thanks for your comments. I wish I had access to Dr. Faris'
2nd
> > > > Edition of Plantagenet Ancestry. The first Edition on page 270 also
> > > refers
> > > > to Alianor Holand as the mother of Elizabeth Tuchet (father is James
> > > > Tuchet). James was first married to Margaret de Ros. I have
checked
> > with
> > > > the National Society Magna Charta Dames and Barons and they do not
> > show
> > > the
> > > > de Ros connection to my ancestor, Reverend Hawte Wyatt. If they
did,
> > I
> > > > would be descended from Robert de Ros and William D'Aubigny,
> > > > both Magna Charta Sureties. These Sureties are not listed in Rev.
> > Hawte's
> > > > pedigree so no one has entered the Society for Reverend Hawte Wyatt
> > using
> > > > the line of Margaret de Ros. I found a reference from Steven
Perkins
> > > where
> > > > he also shows the Margaret
> > > > de Ros connection and credits his listing to Douglas Richardson from
a
> > > post
> > > > to soc.genealogy.medieval on Oct. 5, 1999. If I can remember how to
> > > access
> > > > the archives I will check that to see if it sheds any additional
> > light.
> > > > Amazing how something so seemingly clear can become so confusing in
so
> > > short
> > > > a time. Lee Denham
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: Leo van de Pas <>
> > > > To: Janet Denham <>;
<>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 1:03 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: Edmund of York and Isabella of Castille, dec. 1393
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > You say you are confused, and so am I.
> > > > > For your research Elizabeth (wife of Edward Brooke, Lord Cobham)
> > > daughter
> > > > of
> > > > > James Touchet is the crucial point, who is her mother?
> > > > >
> > > > > If you go to the Complete Peerage Volume III page 346,
> > > > > Edward Brooke, 6th Lord Cobham, married Elizabeth, daughter of
James
> > > > > (Tuchet), Lord Audley, by his 2nd wife, Eleanor illegitimate
> > daughter
> > of
> > > > > Thomas (Holand) Earl of Kent.
> > > > > There is a foot note See as to her parentage, The Genealogist,
N.S.
> > > > > vol.xxviii, part 1, page 62.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sadly, I do not have access to that.
> > > > >
> > > > > But let us go on, Cahiers de Saint Louis, Page 628, has a
correction
> > > > which,
> > > > > translated, tells that Eleanore Holand had a third daughter,
> > Elisabeth
> > > > > Touche married to Edward Brooke Lord Cobham.
> > > > >
> > > > > Now some speculation as I have not seen anything making Elizabeth
a
> > > > daughter
> > > > > of Margaret de Ro(o)s.
> > > > > Sadly, many dates are missing as those would help us so much more.
> > > > Margaret
> > > > > de Ros was born in 1398 and died in 1423.
> > > > > In 1414/5 she married James Touchet, I have only two children out
of
> > > this
> > > > > marriage, Anne and John. John is born in 1420. Altogether there is
> > > enough
> > > > > time for Elisabeth to be born
> > > > > but by James's 2nd marriage I have the following children,
> > > > > Edmund, Thomas, Henry, Margaret, Anne, Elizabeth and Constance.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can anyone enlighten me why Margaret de Ros is now mentioned as
the
> > > mother
> > > > > of Elizabeth?
> > > > > Leo van de Pas
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: Janet Denham <>
> > > > > To: <>
> > > > > Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2000 12:43 PM
> > > > > Subject: Fw: Edmund of York and Isabella of Castille, dec. 1393
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > I am just catching up on the last two weeks and am very
interested
> > in
> > > > the
> > > > > > research on the pedigree of Constance of York. I, too, have had
> > > > Constance
> > > > > > in my pedigree through her daughter Alianor, but it seems this
is
> > an
> > > > > error.
> > > > > > The most recent information suggests that Margaret Ros was the
> > mother
> > > of
> > > > > > Elizabeth Tuchet. On April 4, Theron
> > > > > > Smith stated that Edward Brooke, 6th Lord Cobham was the son of
> > > Margaret
> > > > > > Roos and
> > > > > > James Tuchet. Should Edward Brooke have been the son-in-law?
Am
> > > quite
> > > > > > confused by this and will greatly appreciate clarification. The
> > new
> > > > info
> > > > > > appears to come from Faris' 2nd Edition. Will someone please
> > review
> > > the
> > > > > > following pedigree and comment on its accuracy?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > James Tuchet, 5th Lord Audley c. 1398 - 1459
> > > > > > + Margaret de Roos (Ros)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Elizabeth Tuchet de Audley
> > > > > > + Edward Brooke, 6th Lord Cobham ? - 1464
> > > > > >
> > > > > > John Brooke, 7th Lord Cobham c. 1444 - 1511
> > > > > > + Margaret Neville
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Thomas Brooke, Lord Cobham ? - 1529
> > > > > > + Dorothy Heydon
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Elizabeth Brooke
> > > > > > + Sir Thomas Wyatt
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If the foregoing is accurate, then my line does not decend from
> > > Edmund,
> > > > > Duke
> > > > > > of York and Isabella of Castile as originally thought.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Many thanks. Lee Denham
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > From: THERON L. SMITH <>
> > > > > > To: <>
> > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2000 11:08 PM
> > > > > > Subject: RE: Edmund of York and Isabella of Castille, dec. 1393
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > ED Mann wrote:
> > > > > > > <I have, I think, some 46 lines from Edmund & Isabella to
> > Charles,
> > > > > > > none
> > > > > > > > of which depend on the parentage of Edward Brooke. Here's
> > one:
> > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > That's exciting news to royal ancetor watchers! I need to go
> > > > > > > through Faris 2d Ed. with a fine toothed comb. Since OUR
> > descent
> > > was
> > > > > > > through Constance's liason with Sir Edmond HOLAND, I hadn't
> > > > concentrated
> > > > > > on
> > > > > > > her legitimate issue.
> > > > > > > Frankly, I didn't know she had any. I notice the section with
> > this
> > > > > > > information was not in Faris, 1st Ed,
> > > > > > > <SNIP>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>

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