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From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <>
Subject: Re: AT of Matilda of Mayenne, wife of Hugh II of Burgundy
Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 17:51:26 -0600


Ernst Hoffmann wrote:
>
> Todd and Leo!
>
> Instead of beating each others sources to death, can I suggest a scholarly
> approach ?

Evaluating the quality of sources is the certerpiece of a scholarly
approach.

> I bet the three of us will easily agree, that names in a family were not
> taken by chance, but followed certain rules.... or should I say uncertain
> rules <sm> Would you also agree, that the children of a couple are
> preferably selected from the namestock in BOTH families concerned ?.

I will play along, but since we have both a toponyme and the mother's
name of Matilda from contemporary documents, I am not sure why all this
is necessary.

>
> Then lets try it:
> Mathilda (Ladys first!) and Hugo had twelve children: (out of which I do
> have 11 names:
>
> Girls:
>
> Angeline
> Mathilde
> Sibylle
> Clemence
> Arenburge
>
> Boys:
>
> Robert
> Henry
> Walter
> Hugo
> Eudo
> Raymond
>
> It would be wonderful, if we had their birthdays.... but nevermind. In the
> absence of such facts.... Lets blame it on the local parish priest.... he
> was so fond of genealogical discussion groups <sm>
>
> 1. Observation: there is NO FELICIA !

Observation: if her name was Matilda-Felicia, then we would not
necessarily expect a Felicia when we already have a Matilda (who may
have been Matilda-Felicia, with the source only recording the first
name). FWIW, Felicia (basically "Happy") is suggestive of a nickname,
and thus a daughter named Matilda might have been called "Felicia" among
her family but not in distant Burgundy. Note that in the
Provence-Barcelona clan "Dulce" (= "Sweet") appears to have started
similarly as a nick- or second name of a Stephanie, and only later
evolved into a given name, in memory of the earlier bearer of the
nickname.


> 2. Now lets subtract parents of the father, father and mother (the latter
> ones ore usaually "Junior" kids)
>
> Whats left:
>
> Girls:
>
> Angeline = she seems to be the oldest daughter
> Clemence
> Arenburge

Clemence is the name which came into the family with Sybil of Burgundy,
Hugh's mother. Arenberge is a more distant female name among the Dukes
of Burgundy. That leaves "Angeline" which is certainly a novelty in the
family, and I have to wonder if it isn't a mis-elaboration of Aeline
(which appears to have actually been a shortened form of Adeline), the
documented name of Matilda's mother.

>
> Boys:
>
> Robert = Uncle "bishop" of Hugo
> Henry = Grandfather of Hugo
> Walter
> Raymond = GGrandfather of Hugo (<Raymond Berengar of Barcelona>) + Uncle of
> Hugo <Rainald Abbot of Flavigny-St Pierre...

The g-grandfather part is wrong. Even if the connection to Barcelona is
correct (again, talk about speculation . . . .) Vajay, in presenting it,
made an unfortunate error and flipped the names of the prospective
father of Eudes' mother. Based on both the chronology and the name he
gave his wife, it is clear that Berenger Ramon (I) was the intended
Count, and thus, if true, Ramon Berenger (I) would be an uncle (or you
could go to Ramon Borell, father of Berenger).


> BTW: It was me, who followed an educated guess and came up with Juhael I of
> Mayenne.....BUT THERE IS NO KID WITH THAT NAME.... <sniff>

Not to mention Juhel didn't marry a Aeline, but instead a Constance.

> OK: I have tabled the evidence, how about the internal grand-jury making up
> its mind and come up with an unanimous vote-----

Who are we left with among these childrens' names? Walter and
A(ng)eline.

Now we look at the Count and Countess of Mayenne of the generation
immediately preceeding Matilda, and what do you know - Walter and
Aeline.

ta

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