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From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
Subject: Re: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2000 00:56:59 +0100


Kind folks, those Brits.

"...the Traytor laid upon a Hurdle or Sledge, be drawn to the
Gallows..."

Why was this worse than being drawn in a cart with wheels on it, a la
Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI [supposedly]?

Was it because the victim was laid down ---- ergo lower ---- on the
hurdle or sledge ---- and the populace could throw more crap, fruit and
stones on him as he passed and also that it took much longer to get to
the gallows?

The Chap who Wrote that sure as Hell knew how to Capitalize Properly.

Jolly Good Show.
--

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
[c.1258-1264]

All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.

All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.

Vires et Honor.

"Kyle VanLandingham" <> wrote in message
news:006d01bffb37$af51a600$...

| The following is from MAGNA BRITANNIA NOTITIA: OR THE PRESENT STATE
OF
| GREAT BRITAIN; WITH DIVERS REMARKS UPON THE ANTIENT STATE THEREOF, by
John
| Chamberlayne, Esq., (London, 1723), pp. 191-194.
|
| "All crimes in England that touch the Life of a Man, are either
| High-Treason, Petty-Treason, Rape, Buggery, Murder, or Felony.
|
| "Altho' some High-Treasons are much more heinous and odious than
others, yet
| the Punishment by Law is the same for all sorts, (except for Clipping
and
| coining Money) and that is, that the Traytor laid upon a Hurdle or
Sledge,
| be drawn to the Gallows, there hang'd by the Neck, presently cut down
alive,
| his Entrails to be suddenly pulled out of his Belly, and burnt beore
the
| face of the Criminal; then his Head to be cut off, his Body to be
divided
| into four Parts; and lastly, that the Head and Body be hung up, or
impaled
| where the King shall command.
|
| "Besides all this, he shall forfeit all his Lands and Goods
whatsoever; his
| Wife shall lose her Dowry, his Children their Nobility, and their
Right of
| Inheriting from him, or any other Ancestors....
|
| "Petit-Treason is either when a Servant killeth his Master or
Mistress, or a
| Wife killeth her Husband, or a Clergyman his Prelate, to whom he oweth
| Obedience; and for this Crime the Punishment is to be drawn (as
before) and
| to be hang'd by the Neck till he be dead. The Punishment for a Woman
| convicted of High-Treason, or Petty-Treason, is all one, and that is
to be
| drawn and burnt alive.
|
| "For Felonies, or other Capital Crimes, there were anciently several
sorts
| of Punishment, till Hen. I ordained, that the Punishment for all
Felonies,
| should be to be hanged by the Neck till they be dead.
|
| "But if a Peer of the Realm commit High-Treason, Petty Treason, or
Felony,
| altho' his Judgment be the same with that of common Persons, yet the
King
| doth usually extend so much Favour to such, as to cause them only to
be
| beheaded with an Ax, upon a Block, lying on the Ground, and not as in
all
| other Countries, by a Sword, kneeling or standing.
|
| "If a Criminal indicted of Petty-Treason, Felony, or any Capital
Crime,
| refuseth to answer, or to put himself upon a Legal Tryal; then for
such
| standing Mute, and Contumacy he is presently to undergo that horrible
| Punishment called Prine forte & dure; that is, to be sent back to the
Prison
| from whence he came, and there laid in some low dark Room, upon the
bare
| Ground, on his Back, all naked besides his Privy-Parts, his Arms and
Legs
| drawn with Cords, fastened to the several Quarters of the Romm; and
then
| shall be laid upon his body, Iron and Stone, so much as he may bear,
or
| more; the next Day he shall have three Morsels of Barley Bread,
without
| Drink, and the third Day shall have Drink of the Water next to the
Prison
| Door, except it be running Water, without Bread; and this shall be his
Diet
| till he die. Which grievous kind of Death some stout Fellows have
sometimes
| chosen, that so not being tried and convicted of their Crimes, their
Estates
| may not be forfeited to the King but descend to their Children, nor
their
| Blood stained.
|
| "But tho' the Law continues, yet we so abhor Cruelty, that of late
they are
| suffered to be so over-charged with Weights laid upon them, that they
die
| presently. ...
|
| "As for Breaking on the Wheel, and others like Torturing Deaths,
common in
| other Christian Countries, the English look upon them as too cruel to
be
| used by the Professors of Christianity."
|
|
| -----Original Message-----
| From: D. Spencer Hines <>
| To: <>
| Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:17 PM
| Subject: Re: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
|
|
| >No, it's "hanged, drawn and quartered" ---- not 'hung'.
| >--
| >
| >D. Spencer Hines
| >
| >Lux et Veritas et Libertas
| >
| >"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of
truth....
| >This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end
beyond
| >itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra
Gentiles"
| >[c.1258-1264]
| >
| >All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
| >
| >All original material contained herein is copyright and property of
the
| >author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
an
| >attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
| >given, in writing.
| >
| >Vires et Honor.
| >
| >"Renia" <> wrote in message
| >news:...
| >
| >| Colin Bevan wrote:
| >|
| >| > This is not the same as being hung, drawn and quartered which is
the
| >penalty
| >| > for treason(not abolished until 1821).
| >| >
| >| > Curiously, the ignominy of Mortimer's fate was that he was hung
as a
| >felon
| >| > i.e. common criminal. To my mind it was a far more merciful
death.
| >|
| >| I read that he was hung and drawn.
| >|
| >| Renia
| >|
| >| > For graphic details of being hung, drawn and quartered see
| >| > www.strum.co.uk/twilight/hdq.htm
| >| >
| >| > Cheers
| >| >
| >| > Rosie
| >| > ----- Original Message -----
| >| > From: "Leo van de Pas" <>
| >| > To: <>
| >| > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 3:02 PM
| >| > Subject: Fw: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
| >| >
| >| > > Perhaps I am callous but when reading about such executions I
read
| >it as
| >| > > information. If you visualise the horrendous things inflicted
on
| >people,
| >| > you
| >| > > would not want to read any further and, as a result, you might
as
| >well
| >| > give
| >| > > up genealogy.
| >| > >
| >| > >
| >| > > In the Complete Peerage,Volume VIII page 441, they give a
| >description
| >| > which,
| >| > > to me is a bit vague (thank goodness).
| >| > >
| >| > > "He died 29 November1330, being drawn to execution like a felon
| >and hanged
| >| > > at the Elms, Tyburn. His body was left on the gallows two days
and
| >two
| >| > > nights. He was buried in the Church of the Grey Friars at
| >Shrewsbury."
| >| > >
| >| > > The question I would ask (but don't answer) is, what do they
mean
| >by
| >| > "being
| >| > > drawn to execution". If drawn means what I think it does, there
| >was not
| >| > much
| >| > > left of him to hang.
| >| > > Best wishes
| >| > > Leo van de Pas
| >| > > Perth, Western Australia
| >| > >
| >| > >
| >| > > ----- Original Message -----
| >| > > From: D. Spencer Hines <>
| >| > > To: <>
| >| > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:36 AM
| >| > > Subject: Re: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
| >| > >
| >| > >
| >| > > > Perhaps some kind Brit will tell us what the penalty for
someone
| >| > > > convicted of treason in England in 1330 was.
| >| > > > --
| >| > > >
| >| > > > D. Spencer Hines
| >| > > >
| >| > > > Lux et Veritas et Libertas
| >| > > >
| >| > > > "The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of
| >truth....
| >| > > > This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other
end
| >beyond
| >| > > > itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra
| >Gentiles"
| >| > > > [c.1258-1264]
| >| > > >
| >| > > > All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
| >| > > >
| >| > > > All original material contained herein is copyright and
property
| >of the
| >| > > > author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum
and
| >with an
| >| > > > attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise
| >expressly
| >| > > > given, in writing.
| >| > > >
| >| > > > Vires et Honor.
| >| > > >
| >| > > > "D. Spencer Hines" <> wrote
in
| >message
| >| > > > news:...
| >| > > > | Actually, Roger de Mortimer, Earl of March reportedly
suffered
| >a much
| >| > > > | more miserable and gruesome death than just a simple
hanging.
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | It's too spicy for mixed company. Pace.
| >| > > > | --
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | D. Spencer Hines
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | Lux et Veritas et Libertas
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | "The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation
of
| >truth....
| >| > > > | This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no
other
| >end
| >| > > > beyond
| >| > > > | itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa
Contra
| >Gentiles"
| >| > > > | [c.1258-1264]
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | All original material contained herein is copyright and
| >property of
| >| > > > the
| >| > > > | author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum
| >and with
| >| > > > an
| >| > > > | attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise
| >expressly
| >| > > > | given, in writing.
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | Vires et Honor.
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | "John Steele Gordon" <> wrote
in
| >message
| >| > > > | news:...
| >| > > > |
| >| > > > | | malinda jones wrote:
| >| > > > | |
| >| > > > | | > What kind of miserable death did Roger Mortimer have ?
| >| > > > | | >
| >| > > > | | > (I remember Edward II all too well...no need to go
into
| >that on
| >| > > > my
| >| > > > | account)
| >| > > > | | >
| >| > > > | | > malinda
| >| > > > | |
| >| > > > | | Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, was hanged at Tyburn
on
| >November
| >| > > > | | 29th, 1330. His death, I suppose, was a disgraceful one,
| >being
| >| > > > hanged
| >| > > > | | instead of beheaded, but it was not particularly
miserable,
| >at least
| >| > > > | by
| >| > > > | | the standards of an age that could be very creative
indeed
| >when it
| >| > > > | came
| >| > > > | | to devising miserable deaths.
| >| > > > | |
| >| > > > | | The Oxford Companion to British History says of Roger
| >Mortimer, He
| >| > > > | "had
| >| > > > | | no reservations in displaying his power, wealth, and
| >position. This
| >| > > > | | regime [he and his lover, Queen Isabella, ran the country
| >after
| >| > > > Edward
| >| > > > | | II's overthrow] proved to be as corrupt and incompetent
as
| >that of
| >| > > > the
| >| > > > | | Despensers which it succeeded, . . ."
| >| > > > | |
| >| > > > | | Through his son Edmund and his daughter Katherine, he is
| >ancestral
| >| > > > to
| >| > > > | | many, many people living today.
| >| > > > | |
| >| > > > | | Whether Edward II actually suffered *his* miserable
death,
| >of
| >| > > > course,
| >| > > > | is
| >| > > > | | a question that in all likelihood will never be known for
| >sure.
| >| > > > | |
| >| > > > | | JSG
| >
| >______________________________
|

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