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From: "Kyle VanLandingham" <>
Subject: Re: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 20:31:01 -0500


Attorney General, later Chief Justice Edward Coke, explained the symbolism
of hanging, drawing and quartering when he prosecuted the defendants in the
Gunpowder Plot Trial:

"After a traitor hath had his just trial, and is convicted and attainted, he
shall have his judgment: To be drawn to the place of execution from his
prison, as being not worthy any more to tread upon the face of earth whereof
he was made. Also, for that he hath been retrograde to nature, therefore is
he drawn backward at a horse-tail. And whereas God hath made the head of
man the highest and most supreme part, as being his chief grace and
ornament, he must be drawn with his head declining downward and lying so
near the ground as may be, being thought unfit to take benefit of the common
air. For which cause also he shall be strangled, being hanged up by the
neck between heaven and earth as deemed unworthy of both or either; as
likewise, that the eyes of men may behold and their hearts contemn him.
Then he to be cut down alive, and have his privy parts cut off and burnt
before his face as being unworthily begotten and unfit to leave any
generation after him. His bowels and inlay'd parts taken out and burnt, who
inwardly had conceived and harbored such horrible treason. After, to have
his head cut off, which had imagined the mischief. And lastly, his body to
be quartered and the quarters set up in some high and eminent place, to the
view and detestation of men, and to become a prey for the fowls of the air."

Catherine Drinker Bowen, THE LION AND THE THRONE, THE LIFE AND TIMES OF SIR
EDWARD COKE (1552-1634) (Boston, 1956), 258-259.
-----Original Message-----
From: D. Spencer Hines <>
To: <>
Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March


>Kind folks, those Brits.
>
>"...the Traytor laid upon a Hurdle or Sledge, be drawn to the
>Gallows..."
>
>Why was this worse than being drawn in a cart with wheels on it, a la
>Marie Antoinette and Louis XVI [supposedly]?
>
>Was it because the victim was laid down ---- ergo lower ---- on the
>hurdle or sledge ---- and the populace could throw more crap, fruit and
>stones on him as he passed and also that it took much longer to get to
>the gallows?
>
>The Chap who Wrote that sure as Hell knew how to Capitalize Properly.
>
>Jolly Good Show.
>--
>
>D. Spencer Hines
>
>Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
>"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of truth....
>This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end beyond
>itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra Gentiles"
>[c.1258-1264]
>
>All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>
>All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
>author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
>attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
>given, in writing.
>
>Vires et Honor.
>
>"Kyle VanLandingham" <> wrote in message
>news:006d01bffb37$af51a600$...
>
>| The following is from MAGNA BRITANNIA NOTITIA: OR THE PRESENT STATE
>OF
>| GREAT BRITAIN; WITH DIVERS REMARKS UPON THE ANTIENT STATE THEREOF, by
>John
>| Chamberlayne, Esq., (London, 1723), pp. 191-194.
>|
>| "All crimes in England that touch the Life of a Man, are either
>| High-Treason, Petty-Treason, Rape, Buggery, Murder, or Felony.
>|
>| "Altho' some High-Treasons are much more heinous and odious than
>others, yet
>| the Punishment by Law is the same for all sorts, (except for Clipping
>and
>| coining Money) and that is, that the Traytor laid upon a Hurdle or
>Sledge,
>| be drawn to the Gallows, there hang'd by the Neck, presently cut down
>alive,
>| his Entrails to be suddenly pulled out of his Belly, and burnt beore
>the
>| face of the Criminal; then his Head to be cut off, his Body to be
>divided
>| into four Parts; and lastly, that the Head and Body be hung up, or
>impaled
>| where the King shall command.
>|
>| "Besides all this, he shall forfeit all his Lands and Goods
>whatsoever; his
>| Wife shall lose her Dowry, his Children their Nobility, and their
>Right of
>| Inheriting from him, or any other Ancestors....
>|
>| "Petit-Treason is either when a Servant killeth his Master or
>Mistress, or a
>| Wife killeth her Husband, or a Clergyman his Prelate, to whom he oweth
>| Obedience; and for this Crime the Punishment is to be drawn (as
>before) and
>| to be hang'd by the Neck till he be dead. The Punishment for a Woman
>| convicted of High-Treason, or Petty-Treason, is all one, and that is
>to be
>| drawn and burnt alive.
>|
>| "For Felonies, or other Capital Crimes, there were anciently several
>sorts
>| of Punishment, till Hen. I ordained, that the Punishment for all
>Felonies,
>| should be to be hanged by the Neck till they be dead.
>|
>| "But if a Peer of the Realm commit High-Treason, Petty Treason, or
>Felony,
>| altho' his Judgment be the same with that of common Persons, yet the
>King
>| doth usually extend so much Favour to such, as to cause them only to
>be
>| beheaded with an Ax, upon a Block, lying on the Ground, and not as in
>all
>| other Countries, by a Sword, kneeling or standing.
>|
>| "If a Criminal indicted of Petty-Treason, Felony, or any Capital
>Crime,
>| refuseth to answer, or to put himself upon a Legal Tryal; then for
>such
>| standing Mute, and Contumacy he is presently to undergo that horrible
>| Punishment called Prine forte & dure; that is, to be sent back to the
>Prison
>| from whence he came, and there laid in some low dark Room, upon the
>bare
>| Ground, on his Back, all naked besides his Privy-Parts, his Arms and
>Legs
>| drawn with Cords, fastened to the several Quarters of the Romm; and
>then
>| shall be laid upon his body, Iron and Stone, so much as he may bear,
>or
>| more; the next Day he shall have three Morsels of Barley Bread,
>without
>| Drink, and the third Day shall have Drink of the Water next to the
>Prison
>| Door, except it be running Water, without Bread; and this shall be his
>Diet
>| till he die. Which grievous kind of Death some stout Fellows have
>sometimes
>| chosen, that so not being tried and convicted of their Crimes, their
>Estates
>| may not be forfeited to the King but descend to their Children, nor
>their
>| Blood stained.
>|
>| "But tho' the Law continues, yet we so abhor Cruelty, that of late
>they are
>| suffered to be so over-charged with Weights laid upon them, that they
>die
>| presently. ...
>|
>| "As for Breaking on the Wheel, and others like Torturing Deaths,
>common in
>| other Christian Countries, the English look upon them as too cruel to
>be
>| used by the Professors of Christianity."
>|
>|
>| -----Original Message-----
>| From: D. Spencer Hines <>
>| To: <>
>| Date: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:17 PM
>| Subject: Re: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
>|
>|
>| >No, it's "hanged, drawn and quartered" ---- not 'hung'.
>| >--
>| >
>| >D. Spencer Hines
>| >
>| >Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>| >
>| >"The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of
>truth....
>| >This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other end
>beyond
>| >itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra
>Gentiles"
>| >[c.1258-1264]
>| >
>| >All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>| >
>| >All original material contained herein is copyright and property of
>the
>| >author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with
>an
>| >attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
>| >given, in writing.
>| >
>| >Vires et Honor.
>| >
>| >"Renia" <> wrote in message
>| >news:...
>| >
>| >| Colin Bevan wrote:
>| >|
>| >| > This is not the same as being hung, drawn and quartered which is
>the
>| >penalty
>| >| > for treason(not abolished until 1821).
>| >| >
>| >| > Curiously, the ignominy of Mortimer's fate was that he was hung
>as a
>| >felon
>| >| > i.e. common criminal. To my mind it was a far more merciful
>death.
>| >|
>| >| I read that he was hung and drawn.
>| >|
>| >| Renia
>| >|
>| >| > For graphic details of being hung, drawn and quartered see
>| >| > www.strum.co.uk/twilight/hdq.htm
>| >| >
>| >| > Cheers
>| >| >
>| >| > Rosie
>| >| > ----- Original Message -----
>| >| > From: "Leo van de Pas" <>
>| >| > To: <>
>| >| > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 3:02 PM
>| >| > Subject: Fw: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
>| >| >
>| >| > > Perhaps I am callous but when reading about such executions I
>read
>| >it as
>| >| > > information. If you visualise the horrendous things inflicted
>on
>| >people,
>| >| > you
>| >| > > would not want to read any further and, as a result, you might
>as
>| >well
>| >| > give
>| >| > > up genealogy.
>| >| > >
>| >| > >
>| >| > > In the Complete Peerage,Volume VIII page 441, they give a
>| >description
>| >| > which,
>| >| > > to me is a bit vague (thank goodness).
>| >| > >
>| >| > > "He died 29 November1330, being drawn to execution like a felon
>| >and hanged
>| >| > > at the Elms, Tyburn. His body was left on the gallows two days
>and
>| >two
>| >| > > nights. He was buried in the Church of the Grey Friars at
>| >Shrewsbury."
>| >| > >
>| >| > > The question I would ask (but don't answer) is, what do they
>mean
>| >by
>| >| > "being
>| >| > > drawn to execution". If drawn means what I think it does, there
>| >was not
>| >| > much
>| >| > > left of him to hang.
>| >| > > Best wishes
>| >| > > Leo van de Pas
>| >| > > Perth, Western Australia
>| >| > >
>| >| > >
>| >| > > ----- Original Message -----
>| >| > > From: D. Spencer Hines <>
>| >| > > To: <>
>| >| > > Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 10:36 AM
>| >| > > Subject: Re: Children of Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March
>| >| > >
>| >| > >
>| >| > > > Perhaps some kind Brit will tell us what the penalty for
>someone
>| >| > > > convicted of treason in England in 1330 was.
>| >| > > > --
>| >| > > >
>| >| > > > D. Spencer Hines
>| >| > > >
>| >| > > > Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>| >| > > >
>| >| > > > "The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation of
>| >truth....
>| >| > > > This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no other
>end
>| >beyond
>| >| > > > itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa Contra
>| >Gentiles"
>| >| > > > [c.1258-1264]
>| >| > > >
>| >| > > > All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>| >| > > >
>| >| > > > All original material contained herein is copyright and
>property
>| >of the
>| >| > > > author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum
>and
>| >with an
>| >| > > > attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise
>| >expressly
>| >| > > > given, in writing.
>| >| > > >
>| >| > > > Vires et Honor.
>| >| > > >
>| >| > > > "D. Spencer Hines" <> wrote
>in
>| >message
>| >| > > > news:...
>| >| > > > | Actually, Roger de Mortimer, Earl of March reportedly
>suffered
>| >a much
>| >| > > > | more miserable and gruesome death than just a simple
>hanging.
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | It's too spicy for mixed company. Pace.
>| >| > > > | --
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | D. Spencer Hines
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | "The final happiness of man consists in the contemplation
>of
>| >truth....
>| >| > > > | This is sought for its own sake, and is directed to no
>other
>| >end
>| >| > > > beyond
>| >| > > > | itself." Saint Thomas Aquinas, [1224/5-1274] "Summa
>Contra
>| >Gentiles"
>| >| > > > | [c.1258-1264]
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | All original material contained herein is copyright and
>| >property of
>| >| > > > the
>| >| > > > | author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum
>| >and with
>| >| > > > an
>| >| > > > | attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise
>| >expressly
>| >| > > > | given, in writing.
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | Vires et Honor.
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | "John Steele Gordon" <> wrote
>in
>| >message
>| >| > > > | news:...
>| >| > > > |
>| >| > > > | | malinda jones wrote:
>| >| > > > | |
>| >| > > > | | > What kind of miserable death did Roger Mortimer have ?
>| >| > > > | | >
>| >| > > > | | > (I remember Edward II all too well...no need to go
>into
>| >that on
>| >| > > > my
>| >| > > > | account)
>| >| > > > | | >
>| >| > > > | | > malinda
>| >| > > > | |
>| >| > > > | | Roger Mortimer, 1st Earl of March, was hanged at Tyburn
>on
>| >November
>| >| > > > | | 29th, 1330. His death, I suppose, was a disgraceful one,
>| >being
>| >| > > > hanged
>| >| > > > | | instead of beheaded, but it was not particularly
>miserable,
>| >at least
>| >| > > > | by
>| >| > > > | | the standards of an age that could be very creative
>indeed
>| >when it
>| >| > > > | came
>| >| > > > | | to devising miserable deaths.
>| >| > > > | |
>| >| > > > | | The Oxford Companion to British History says of Roger
>| >Mortimer, He
>| >| > > > | "had
>| >| > > > | | no reservations in displaying his power, wealth, and
>| >position. This
>| >| > > > | | regime [he and his lover, Queen Isabella, ran the country
>| >after
>| >| > > > Edward
>| >| > > > | | II's overthrow] proved to be as corrupt and incompetent
>as
>| >that of
>| >| > > > the
>| >| > > > | | Despensers which it succeeded, . . ."
>| >| > > > | |
>| >| > > > | | Through his son Edmund and his daughter Katherine, he is
>| >ancestral
>| >| > > > to
>| >| > > > | | many, many people living today.
>| >| > > > | |
>| >| > > > | | Whether Edward II actually suffered *his* miserable
>death,
>| >of
>| >| > > > course,
>| >| > > > | is
>| >| > > > | | a question that in all likelihood will never be known for
>| >sure.
>| >| > > > | |
>| >| > > > | | JSG
>| >
>| >______________________________
>|
>
>______________________________

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