Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2000-11 > 0975557807

From: "Stewart, Peter" <>
Subject: RE: Agnès de Baudement / van Kerrebrouck' s
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2000 15:16:47 +1100

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Nathaniel Taylor [mailto:]
> Sent: Thursday, 30 November 2000 3:23
> To:
> Subject: Re: Agnès de Baudement / van Kerrebrouck's
> "Stewart, Peter" wrote:
> > Can anyone clarify the parentage of Agnès de Baudement, dame of
> > Braine-sur-Vesle, who died 24 July 1204? ... Patrick
> > van Kerrebrouck in *Les Capétiens 987 - 1328* (Villeneuve
> > d'Ascq, 2000) appears to cross wires over two generations ...
> I can't help with this but I'm delighted to see that this volume
> is now out. What is your overall impression of it, in relation to
> Settipani's _Prehistoire des Capetiens_? Is it a worthy continuation?
> (I have not examined PvK's _Maison de Bourbon_).

I was at first disinclined to post a public reply to Nat's query, because
Patrick van Kerrebrouck is engaged on a vast undertaking and has done a
highly creditable and scholarly job overall in compiling the latest volume
of his Nouvelle Histoire Généalogique de l'Auguste Maison de France: I
certainly do not wish to give anyone the impression that his work is, by and
large, untrustworthy.

However, there are frequent examples of oversight and inconsistency in *Les
Capétiens 987 - 1328* (Villeneuve d'Ascq, 2000) relating to notable figures
in the ancestry of many SMG participants, and some indication to this list
of the book's shortcomings is warranted.

I will give a few examples from dipping into the overlap between this volume
and Christian Settipani's *La préhistoire des Capétiens 481 - 987*, edited
by van Kerrebrouck, who might be expected to ensure internal consistency
throughout the series, especially on major points of fact:

On page 239 and in table 8 of Settipani's work the heiress of the
Carolingian counts of Vermandois is given as "Adelais (Alix)" and with only
one marriage, to the Capetian Hugues le Grand. Her second marriage,
according to most other sources, is entirely ignored, and by a flagrant
editorial oversight no rationale is offered for the ommission. This lady's
father is shown as "Heribert, VIe du nom, comte de Vermandois (IVe du nom)".
Yet on page 538 and in footnote 9 on pages 544 & 545 of van Kerrebrouck's
new volume, the same lady is given as "Adèle ou Aélis", daughter of
"Herbert, Ve du nom" and clearly stated to have married en seconds noces to
Renaud II, count of Clermont-en-Beauvaisis. No reference whatsoever is made
to the conflicting indication and detail in the previous volume of the same
work. (NB the differing versions of given names are accounted for,
indirectly, elsewhere).

This is somewhat typical of a lack of care for the genealogical details of
heiresses from other families who married Capetians, whatever their
importance to the dynastic history. I have previously posted other examples,
relating to Élisabeth, dame of Courtenay on 8 November, and to Agnès de
Baudement, dame of Braine on 29 November. By the way, I think the lineage
given in the Bourbon volume for the earlier seigneurial family is a little
inadequate, and the work of Szabolcs de Vajay in another context needed to
be augmented by further research there. Opinions may well differ on this, of

A few further mistakes from the chapters in *Les Capétiens 987 - 1328*
covering descendants of Robert I, seigneur (called count) of Dreux will
suffice to show that some care is needed in drawing information from this

On page 308 Simon de Dreux is stated without comment to have been born "vers
1142", while on the previous page his parents' marriage is dated "après
1143"; his full-sister Adèle de Dreux, dame of Montjay, born ca 1145/6, is
wrongly given as his half-sister instead, with the marriage of her purported
parents occurring in 1152. The mother incorrectly ascribed to her is Agnès
de Baudement, whose own parentage is confused by van Kerrebrouck as detailed
in my earlier posting.

On page 315 the mother-in-law of Robert IV, count of Dreux is given as
"Jeanne de Craon, dame of Château-du-Loir" etc - this seems to be a
conflation of two women who were maternal first cousins, with the correct
one in this context being Jeanne de Châteaudun. If not, there is no
reference offered for the point to confirm the new information.

On page 328 van Kerrebrouck states that Robert II de Dreux, seigneur of Bû
was born in 1265, "probablement posthume" - although his father on page 327
his father is shown as dying on 14 November 1281.

None of these points is discussed in text or notes, so differences from the
sources cited or other authorities are presumably inadvertent.

There are many similar examples throughout the book. I don't think these
compromise it unduly, but SMG readers spending the pretty pennies to acquire
it should be aware that it is not, by any means, perfect or quite thoroughly
prepared by the author/general editor.

Peter Stewart

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