Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-01 > 0980992791

From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
Subject: Re: Edward I Patent (1288) for Sale on Ebay
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 2001 01:59:51 -0000
References: <>, <>, <>


I requested that he send me a copy of the scan, but he has not, so far
as I know.

I've certainly not received it.

Possible Forgery?

And yes, its provenance is important.

Was it stolen from the PRO?

Open questions all.

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,

"You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
_Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290

"On rsiste l'invasion des armes; on ne rsiste pas l'invasion des

Victor Hugo

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Vires et Honor

"Renia" <> wrote in message
| Very unusual. Edward I was never King of Scotland or Ireland, though
not for want
| of trying.
| In 1288, the year of the auctioned document, there was a Regency in
Scotland, due
| to youth of the queen, Margaret of Norway, and because of doubts as to
| suitability to the throne, for Scotland had never before had a queen.
Edward I did
| not involve himself heavily in Scots affairs, until Margaret's father,
the King of
| Norway, approached him in 1289. Happy arrangements were made for her
to marry
| Edward I's son, but she died in 1290, and this put Scotland into
turmoil. As he was
| a stickler for propriety and had political integrity, I doubt that he
ever styled
| himself "King of Scotland", particularly when there was a young queen
on the
| throne, and when there was an active Regency.
| In Letters Patent dated 1291, the rival claimants of the Scottish
Crown, granted
| the Kingdom to Edward I, pending his judgment on their respective
rights, wherein
| they state "Whereas, we of our good will and common assent, and
without any
| compulsion, have granted and conceded to the noble Prince, Sir Edward,
by the grace
| of God King of England, that he, as Sovereign Lord of the land of
Scotland, may
| hear, try, and determine our claims and demands, that we intend to
shew forth and
| aver, to our right in the kingdom of Scotland, and thereupon to
receive justice
| before him as Sovereign Lord of the land....."
| A little later, in 24 Ed I, in the Ragman Rolls, Edward is styled
"King of England,
| Lord of Ireland, and Duke of Aquitaine." The highest he could ever
have styled
| himself was "Lord of Scotland", but only after 1291.
| This leads to the question of why his brother-in-law, (the
| France-based) John of Brittany was in Scotland, and how he came to be
captured in
| or before 1288. There is no mention of this in CP's quite wordy
biography of John
| of Brittany, Earl of Richmond, which states that on the last of his
four seals, in
| 1275, 1276, he styled himself only Duke of Brittany (if I am reading
it correctly).
| Food for thought.
| Renia
| Richard Cochran wrote:
| > I noticed an unusual item on Ebay for sale today. It might have
| > genealogical interest to some. The item has been scanned and
| > as follows:
| >
| > "Edward, by the grace of God king of England, Scotland, Ireland,
Duke of
| > Aquitane, to all his vassals and faithful servants, to them the
| > letter shall
| > come [...]. Known that as our well-beloved kinsman and faithful
servant John of
| > Bretagne, Count of Richmond, on our service was lately taken by the
Scots and
| > is til now detained by them. Therefore with a view to the [...] of
| > to the
| > Count aforesaid we have prescribed and granted to Thomas of Hencotes
| > Richard of Swaffham during his absence to act as attorneys for him
and his
| > county, settling or forwarding on behalf of the Count himself, or
| > County, in
| > any courts of England. And we have further granted that the
aforesaid Thomas
| > or Richard or either of them being present in lieu of the Count
| > being able
| > to appoint as attorney whomever (in plural or singular) they desire
in our
| > court
| > before us in all such suits and plaints, to prosecute or defend,
initiate a
| > forward
| > [...] in the same year as aforesaid. In witness to such matters we
have had
| > these
| > letters to be prepared to be valid for one year and to be of no
| > after the
| > arrival at the Court in England after [...] his delivery from the
hands of
| > the Scots
| > --- By Me, at Thorp Episcopi, the Eleventh Day of June, in the
| > Year of
| > My Reign [1288]."
| >
| > The item [Ebay # #548075028] is up to over $800, and going soon. I
have a
| > copy of the scan (Ebay generally purges them soon after the sale) if
| > anyone's interested.
| >
| > Richard Cochran
| > Big Rapids, MI

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