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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-01 > 0981000397


From: Renia <>
Subject: Re: Edward I Patent (1288) for Sale on Ebay
Date: Thu, 01 Feb 2001 04:06:37 +0000
References: <4.2.0.58.20010130200039.00a1a300@mail.tucker-usa.com>, <3A78C0FB.55042644@cwcom.net>, <3a78a75d_1@binarykiller.newsfeeds.com>


I took a copy of the scan from the online URL that Paul Reed gave. It's
pretty small, and not condusive to legible enlargement, as far as I can
see.
The vendor (according to the blurb on the same URL) apparently bought
the
document from an antiquarian in either Leeds or Lewes. Leeds is in
Yorkshire, and Lewes is in Sussex. How come they don't know which? If
the
antiqurian was in Lewes, then I've never heard of him, and I think I
would
have done, however vaguely, as my dear old Dad was just such an
antiquarian,
and this would somewhere, at some time, probably have been mentioned,
with
our combined interests. My father bought and sold vast quantities of old
documents of various ages over the years. He founded ADA, the Antiquity
Dealers Association in order to provide a means for the provenance of
such
material, and other antiquities, to be centrally recorded, and accompany
the
antiquities wherever they went. I don't know how far he got with this
"Provenance Certificate" (my name) idea, but it surely was a good one.

By the way, in all the documents he handled, from Egyptian papyrii, to
19th century land docs, he never came across one like this. Had he done,
he would have taken it straight to the PRO.

As an aside, he once came across a 20ft long genealogical roll, and
asked me to investigate it. It was hand-drawn in the 17th century, and
was the ancient genealogy of the Chirks of Chirk Castle. He returned it
to them, and he last saw it hanging on the wall there. Such genealogies
as this must be sitting in chests and down the sides of ancient sofas
all over England and elsewhere!

Renia

"D. Spencer Hines" wrote:

> Indeed.
>
> I requested that he send me a copy of the scan, but he has not, so far
> as I know.
>
> I've certainly not received it.
>
> Possible Forgery?
>
> And yes, its provenance is important.
>
> Was it stolen from the PRO?
>
> Open questions all.
> --
>
> D. Spencer Hines
>
> Lux et Veritas et Libertas
>
> "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
> nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]
>
> "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one
> by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle." -- Edmund
> Burke -- Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents [April 23,
> 1770]
>
> "You could not stand five minutes with that man [Burke] beneath a shed
> while it rained, but you must be convinced you had been standing with
> the greatest man you had ever seen." Samuel Johnson [1709-1784],
> _Johnsonian Miscellanies [1897], edited by G.B. Hill, vol. 1, p.290
>
> "On résiste à l'invasion des armées; on ne résiste pas à l'invasion des
> idées."
>
> Victor Hugo
>
> All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.
>
> All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
> author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
> attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
> given, in writing.
>
> Vires et Honor
>
> "Renia" <> wrote in message
> news:...
> | Very unusual. Edward I was never King of Scotland or Ireland, though
> not for want
> | of trying.
> |
> | In 1288, the year of the auctioned document, there was a Regency in
> Scotland, due
> | to youth of the queen, Margaret of Norway, and because of doubts as to
> her
> | suitability to the throne, for Scotland had never before had a queen.
> Edward I did
> | not involve himself heavily in Scots affairs, until Margaret's father,
> the King of
> | Norway, approached him in 1289. Happy arrangements were made for her
> to marry
> | Edward I's son, but she died in 1290, and this put Scotland into
> turmoil. As he was
> | a stickler for propriety and had political integrity, I doubt that he
> ever styled
> | himself "King of Scotland", particularly when there was a young queen
> on the
> | throne, and when there was an active Regency.
> |
> | In Letters Patent dated 1291, the rival claimants of the Scottish
> Crown, granted
> | the Kingdom to Edward I, pending his judgment on their respective
> rights, wherein
> | they state "Whereas, we of our good will and common assent, and
> without any
> | compulsion, have granted and conceded to the noble Prince, Sir Edward,
> by the grace
> | of God King of England, that he, as Sovereign Lord of the land of
> Scotland, may
> | hear, try, and determine our claims and demands, that we intend to
> shew forth and
> | aver, to our right in the kingdom of Scotland, and thereupon to
> receive justice
> | before him as Sovereign Lord of the land....."
> |
> | A little later, in 24 Ed I, in the Ragman Rolls, Edward is styled
> "King of England,
> | Lord of Ireland, and Duke of Aquitaine." The highest he could ever
> have styled
> | himself was "Lord of Scotland", but only after 1291.
> |
> | This leads to the question of why his brother-in-law, (the
> predominantly
> | France-based) John of Brittany was in Scotland, and how he came to be
> captured in
> | or before 1288. There is no mention of this in CP's quite wordy
> biography of John
> | of Brittany, Earl of Richmond, which states that on the last of his
> four seals, in
> | 1275, 1276, he styled himself only Duke of Brittany (if I am reading
> it correctly).
> |
> | Food for thought.
> |
> | Renia
> |
> |
> | Richard Cochran wrote:
> |
> | > I noticed an unusual item on Ebay for sale today. It might have
> some
> | > genealogical interest to some. The item has been scanned and
> translated,
> | > as follows:
> | >
> | > "Edward, by the grace of God king of England, Scotland, Ireland,
> Duke of
> | > Aquitane, to all his vassals and faithful servants, to them the
> present
> | > letter shall
> | > come [...]. Known that as our well-beloved kinsman and faithful
> servant John of
> | > Bretagne, Count of Richmond, on our service was lately taken by the
> Scots and
> | > is til now detained by them. Therefore with a view to the [...] of
> loss
> | > to the
> | > Count aforesaid we have prescribed and granted to Thomas of Hencotes
> and
> | > Richard of Swaffham during his absence to act as attorneys for him
> and his
> | > county, settling or forwarding on behalf of the Count himself, or
> his
> | > County, in
> | > any courts of England. And we have further granted that the
> aforesaid Thomas
> | > or Richard or either of them being present in lieu of the Count
> himself
> | > being able
> | > to appoint as attorney whomever (in plural or singular) they desire
> in our
> | > court
> | > before us in all such suits and plaints, to prosecute or defend,
> initiate a
> | > forward
> | > [...] in the same year as aforesaid. In witness to such matters we
> have had
> | > these
> | > letters to be prepared to be valid for one year and to be of no
> effect
> | > after the
> | > arrival at the Court in England after [...] his delivery from the
> hands of
> | > the Scots
> | > --- By Me, at Thorp Episcopi, the Eleventh Day of June, in the
> Sixteenth
> | > Year of
> | > My Reign [1288]."
> | >
> | > The item [Ebay # #548075028] is up to over $800, and going soon. I
> have a
> | > copy of the scan (Ebay generally purges them soon after the sale) if
> | > anyone's interested.
> | >
> | > Richard Cochran
> | > Big Rapids, MI
> |
> |
>
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