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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-03 > 0984667628


From: "John Steele Gordon" <>
Subject: Re: CROWMER-FIENNES c. 1450
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:47:08 GMT
References: <3AB009A6.620D8D0D@aspermont.esc14.net>



"Larry Coats" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Given the fact that Wm Crowmer, Sheriff of Kent in 1450 and James, 1st
> Lord Say and Sele, were both murdered during Jack Cade's Rebellion of
> that year, would it be reasonable to suspect or conclude that they were
> brothers-in-law? I ask this as Wm Crowmer, according to unverified
> information, married an Elizabeth Fiennes, while James Fiennes, 1st
> Lord Say and Sele, married an Emmeline Crowmer(per Burke). Moreover, Wm
> Crowmer had a son named James. If someone can verify this information, I
> would appreciate the assist.

James Fiennes, 1st Lord Saye and Sele, had a daughter Elizabeth who married
this William Crowmer. Crowmer is referred to as Saye and Sele's son-in-law
in the DNB article on Saye and Sele.

Elizabeth Fiennes and William Crowmer are ancestral to Anne Lovelace,
emigrant to Virginia. The DNB give Emoline Cromer as the mother of Lord
Saye and Sele's heir, William, but I believe the mother of Elizabeth is
unknown.

Edward Gibbon (of Decline and Fall fame) claimed Saye and Sele as an
ancestor, and the latter makes a brief appearance in Henry VI, Part Two
(IV:7). He pleads with Jack Cade for his life ("Ah, countrymen! if when you
make your prayers,/ God should be so obdurate as yourselves,/ How would it
fare with your departed souls?/ And therefore yet relent, and save my
life."). He is executed off stage, but his head makes a brief appearance at
the end of the scene.

JSG


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