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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-03 > 0984697466


From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
Subject: Re: CROWMER-FIENNES c. 1450
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:04:26 -0000
References: <3AB009A6.620D8D0D@aspermont.esc14.net>, <BDEILJCPECNKFPKPCLKECEBKCGAA.p.sutton@ntlworld.com>


This pogue, 1st Baron Saye and Sele** ---- reportedly dragged away by
the mob and executed 4 July 1450 [N.B. No, it was not a celebration of
American Independence Day that got out of hand. ---- DSH] at the
Standard in Cheapside, London ---- is also the 18th Great-Grandfather of
two very fine British actors, Ralph Nathaniel Fiennes ---- and Joseph
Alberic Fiennes -- his brother ---- both of whom still have their heads
about them ---- at last count.

** He was created, probably in Feb 1446/47, Lord Saye and Sele. See
Appendix I, ["Eye"] Volume XI, [1949] of G. E. Cokayne's _The Complete
Peerage_ for a discussion of this creation.

Many folks on SGM and SHM are related to this excellent, but probably
corrupt ---- and certainly quite unfortunate ---- pogue ---- who is
well-remembered in Shakespeare's _Henry VI, Part II, Act IV, Scene 7.

Deus Vult.

Exitus Acta Probat.
--

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing." -- Attributed to Edmund Burke [1729-1797]

Warriors ---- "There is much tradition and mystique in the bequest of
personal weapons to a surviving comrade in arms. It has to do with a
continuation of values past individual mortality. People living in a
time made safe for them by others may find this difficult to
understand." _Hannibal_, Thomas Harris, Delacorte Press, [1999], p. 397.

All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.

All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.

Vires et Honor

"p.sutton" <> wrote in message
news:...

| Larry
|
| Complete Peerage Vol: XI page 481 note (a). says "His head (James
Fiennes,
| Lord Say and Sele) was set on a spear and borne about the City. His
| son-in-law William Cromer, who was Sheriff of Kent, 6 Nov 1444, and
| "had doon grate extorcion ther, as they seid" was beheaded the same
| day at Mile End. According to another account Cade "made both hedes
| kisse to gider"
|
| James Fiennes was married to Emiline Cromer or Crowmer of Willingham.
| The first name of her father is not given but her mother was
apparently
| named Trillow (no first name given either).
|
| Peter Sutton
|
| > -----Original Message-----
| > From: Larry Coats [mailto:]
| > Sent: 15 March 2001 00:16
| > To:

| > Subject: CROWMER-FIENNES c. 1450
| >
| >
| > Given the fact that Wm Crowmer, Sheriff of Kent in 1450 and James,
1st
| > Lord Say and Sele, were both murdered during Jack Cade's Rebellion
of
| > that year, would it be reasonable to suspect or conclude that they
were
| > brothers-in-law? I ask this as Wm Crowmer, according to unverified
| > information, married an Elizabeth Fiennes, while James Fiennes, 1st
| > Lord Say and Sele, married an Emmeline Crowmer(per Burke).
Moreover, Wm
| > Crowmer had a son named James. If someone can verify this
information, I
| > would appreciate the assist.
| > Regards,
| >
| > --
| > Larry D. Hamilton Coats
| > P.O. Box 823
| > Aspermont, TX 79502




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