GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-04 > 0986459296
From: "Annie Natalelli-Waloszek" <>
Subject: Re: other findings
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 10:28:16 +0200
For the rest of the list, if interested... I provide a copy of a letter to Ken:
I think that Col Hansen has, like most of those who try to deal with this, been understandably muddled, and has a number of points to revise:
1. He accepts the mistranslation, (maitre, matre= mother, sister=sororis)which he hadn't been informed of, at the time, of course; this is no reproach, just a call for correction. He states that nephew was often used in preference to grandson, but that is no proof that it should have been so in this case... it simply cannot be concluded...
2. He states that neither Elizabeth's children nor grandchildren could have inherited; I have never seen the text of any law to that effect, and doubt that the taint of legal exclusion would be passed on to grandchildren, innocent & untainted even by then standards. & I doubt that such exclusion extended to such small amounts of goods... if it had, I would assume she would have given them what she wished during her lifetime, & that they would have therefore been less upset at the final settlement...
3. He states that Dud Dudley's allegations that Elizabeth's will was biased in favor of Lord Dudley's legitimate children were based on the executor being Edw Bagley... however, it seems evident from reading the text of the will, that such impression comes from there...
4. There are a number of other persons mentioned on the index, of whom nobody speaks.
5. All of the varying siblings lists I have seen for Elizabeth, would seem to indicate that there were closer relatives than a sister's nephew, to take up the inheritence; the law you cited, specifically states that the inheritence must go to the next of kin (legitimate) therefore, a sister or brother would have inherited before a sister's nephew
6. At least 2 of Elizabeth's sons seem to have been alive at her death.
1. Robt b 1587, d 1653 (in Dudley, Stafford) , 2. Dudley b 1599 d 25 oct 1684 in St Edmunds Robert applied with Dud for the Court suit; Robert was cited in the lease in 1616 with John Bagley and George Guest, & again in PCC Probate, in 1681, long after his death in 1653, so there may have been some dispute over his estate as well... Another son, 3. John, b 1597 d 1604, of St Edmund's, Dudley, Stafford, England, & 4. Edward b1608 of Tipton, Stafford, England, d 1614 St Edmund's, are cited in ancestry com.
The ancestry.com list, which I have tentatively preferred whilst awaiting verification, contains 13 children; present in local records, possibly some from other escapades of Lord Dudleys, but also possible they were simply ignored by previous searchers, as some died early...
With all due caution to pedigrees made by amateurs & posted without verification, caveat lector, by LDS... the work they do themselves is backed up by the most voluminous Genealogical Library in the World, & cannot be dismissed out of hand... I'll try to get around to digging out the 3rd generation today... Leo's ascendance for Lord Dudley better be right, or he's gonna get a razzing when I check it; Do you need the rest of the lineage for Edw's cousin Thomas (there's no son of Elizabeth's by that name here; there is a 3rd generation family of 4 sons, John, Thomas, Edward & Dudley or Rbt, somewhere I think (I'll find that out today) but if I recall, none of them had issue...)
This list referenced as made by LDS themselves, file copyright 1987, June 1988, updated 5 Jan 1988; accessed 30 Dec 2000, (turned up just when I needed them, now gone; if you contact them, Family History Library, 35 N W Temple St, Salt Lake City, UT 84150, USA... please forward results) urls:
Bagleys et al: http://www.familysearch.com/Search/af/ancestral_file_frame.asp?recid=12600637
Sutton/Tomlinson :http://www.familysearch.com/Search/af/family_group_record.asp?familyid=1786269, not by outside contributors, (more subject to error) using their own microfilms of OPRs, which as you know, they do have on hand...
*As to the Visitation list by Thomas, the cousin of Lord Dudley, it has been my experience that (other than genealogists) families have fairly sketchy awareness of children other than their own, in the best of cases; in the worst, they're not too sure of how many they have themselves... so the more complete list seems the better, for the moment, because it keeps the information present in mind.
the LDS list (subject to finding the submitters for refs) is as follows, in the order of appearance (grandchildren still have to be opened):
1 Edw Sutton 5th Lord Dudley b abt 1565 Dudley, Stafford, Eng; Christened 17 sep 1567 St Edmunds, Dudley, Staffordshire, Eng, Died 23 June 1643 Dudley, Stafford, & buried the following day in the same place. not married to Elizabeth.
2. Elizabeth Tomlinson, b abt 1567 of Dudley, Stafford, England, buried 4 July 1629 St Edmunds, Dudley etc
Dau of Wm & Mrs Tomlinson
1. Jane Joan Dudley (Sutton) b 1603 of Dudley, Worcester, England, bruied probably in Hurstmonceux Ch, Sussex, England (some take her to be the mysterious sister of Elizabeth, mother of Edw Bagley; n ote the redundant given name of Jane 7, while the birth dates are different, & death dates are unknown for both)
2. Susan Sutton b abt 1594 of Dudley, Stafford, died 1598 St Edmunds, Dudley etc; buried 19 oct 1601...wow
3. Elizabeth Dudley/Sutton b abt 1590 of Dudley, Stafford, died 28 Mar 1647 St Edmund's, buried same day.
4. John, b 1597 d 1604, of St Edmund's, Dudley, Stafford, England
5. Edward Sutton b abt 1608 of Tipton, Stafford, d. 1614 St Edmunds, Dudley, Staff
6. Robt b 1587, Dudley, Stafford , d 1653 & buried 16 Jun netherton Hall, Dudley, Staffords.
7. Jane Dudley/Sutton b abt 1588 of Dudley, Stafford
8. Catherine Sutton b 1589 of Dudley, Stafford
9. Alice Sutton b abt 1592 of Dudley, Stafford
10. Dudley b 1599 d 25 oct 1684 in St Edmunds died in 1653. buried St Helen, Worcester
11. Eleanor Sutton b abt 1602 of Dudley, Stafford died & buried 10 Jan 1659 St Edmunds, Dudley, Staff.
12. Martha Sutton b abt 1613 Dudley, Staffordshire died & buried 10 Jan 1659 St Edmunds Dudley, Staff.
13. Dorothy Sutton b abt 1606 of Dudley, Staffordshire
(previous mail: "What documentation on (Elizabeth's) sisters?" " Three children are shown in the baptismal records at St Thomas, Dudley, born to s born to William and Agnes (Oues) who were married in 1561. Agnes Tomlinson was baptized in 1577. Joan in 1569, and John in 1564.")
Tomorrow, I'll try to open my files of the 3rd generation, & find & verify Leo's list of Edwards ascendants (you better be right Leo; if you slip up now, you'll get a hell of a razzing...) after that, I think I'll go fishing; this list is the to aggressive for my tastes...
All original material in this discussion, including previously, is sole property of the author, protected by copywrite, and cannot be used, usurped, or cited without crediting the author & without prior written consent.
De : <>
À : <>
Date : mercredi 4 avril 2001 22:35
Objet : Re: other findings
In a message dated 4/4/01 12:22:56 AM, writes:
<< I wonder if this Ann Tomlinson, alleged, but undocumented sister of
Elizabeth, is the same person as your Agnes, or is she the sister of
Elizabeth, marrying John Bagley? >>
You have your data hopelesly confused. This Ann is something from the LDS
files. There is none. Also, Elizabeth's sisters are brothers are in the
parish records along with her parents William and Agnes and their burial
records. Elizabeth herself is not in thge records either because she was not
recorded or was on one of the missing pages in that record. All this has
been known for quite some time