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From: "Annie Natalelli-Waloszek" <>
Subject: Re: Tomlinson, Elizabeth PART I
Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2001 20:13:24 +0200


THANKS for this useful bit...

"If she had no property, why was there a nuncupative will? Why were there lawsuits? Why was an administration granted? "

It would seem that her will was not accepted as legal, since there is an admon... is it not?

"We are not stating that Elizabeth was wealthy, but that she had enough personal property to warrant an administration being granted. If there were no purpose, why would the probate judges of the PCC have wasted
their time (and the money it cost)? "

I dont think the point of the MANY wills I've seen distributing a few rags and pennies, was financial importance, but the very strong religious feelings about the 'will' (volonté) or personality of the person being respected even after death, in representing by the way they distributed their goods and wealth, their view of what was important in life... (which is where Elizabeth wanted to get right with God and the Church by distributing to the poor, while Dud wanted the living to get a show of love in getting a break, & vote of importance in her eyes... because what mattered was not the material wealth she or even Dudley had, but to those spiritual times when the intangibles were worth much or more than the tangibles (as proved by the fact that he gave more children to the love of his life, than to the titular wife, who on the other hand, got more of the prestige & comforts...)

The Very Fact that her will was finally treated in PCC and not in public courts, was a sign of this...not everybody was recorded in PCC... this was the "important people's court"... & what about them was important? ...Be they rich or poor, they represented the soul of the empire; their lives were carefully structured to uphold invisible cathedrales... having their "will" their true intention, supposedly guided and steered by divine inspiration and high minded ideals of charity and custodianship of the goods and authorities invested in them, made this crucial... Elizabeth managed, despite her humiliating position in life, to be counted amongst them... it was not a foregone conclusion...

The probate courts and magistrates were not, at the time, on a budget, or subject to public approval... they functioned, as the french say, "aux frais de la princesse"... without counting the cost, only counting the principles involved, and the weight they might carry... the possible eventual consequences of acts... what if everyone were to do as so and so did? the nobles were to live exemplary lives... & in a way, the courts admitted, in treating Elizabeth there, the nobility of her love... they did not, however, extend that respect to the fruits of her noble heart... who were apparently not subject to the same subtle influences nor their strings strummed by the same noble hand...

Dud was not an oportunistic boor, either; he had a family to support, and could count on nothing much from his father, who even made him & his siblings pay rent on homes he owned... Coal mining was a safe investment (everybody needed heat!) the little bit of money from his mother, which she meant to send to the poor, was not enough to solve his problems, but losing it was enough to make things worse... still I think the real problem was elsewhere... he felt offended that after a life of living on dreams with their parents, they all found themselves treated as inexistant before the law... this was probably the first time he truely felt the stigma of being illegitimate, and he hated it, of course... anyone would...

He had been told all his life, as his mother & siblings had, that all that really mattered was the love; they had been sacrificed more or less willingly on the altar of that love, & Dud like any sane person, desperately needed for that love & his identity to be recognised... I wouldn't want to be in his shoes for anything! what a terrible feeling of betrayal! and poor Elizabeth, just trying to do the right thing, get right with God, and act like a noble lady, with her little pittance... the only way she could give to the poor, was to take from her own children... and how did the children feel? That she was prefering to them, her own flesh & blood, who'd grown up & lived with her, fought & plotted, loved & hated & loved again... she was selling her children out to a bunch of faceless strangers who didn't give a hoot for her, and would probably pillage her bier for trinkets if they could, & wouldn't remember her 10 minutes later, if indeed they ever heard their benefactor's !
name... It was a bitter pill to swallow...for anyone!

Annie
-----Message d'origine-----
De : Reedpcgen <>
À : <>
Date : jeudi 5 avril 2001 19:21
Objet : Re: Tomlinson, Elizabeth PART I



Until 1838, nuncupative wills were valid if declared before a witness, the
testator declaring that they were of whole mind, and appointing an executor.
But the testimony of the witness had to be deemed credible by the judges.

If a will in not accepted as valid, and an administration would be granted
(sometimes a sentence being provlaimed to explain the decree), the
administration would be, according to law, committed to the next lawful heir
(unless the deceased was indebted, whereby an administration might be granted
to creditors).

ADMINISTRATION BONDS for the PCC exist from the 16th century. One wonders if
there might have been a bond entered. Bonds were frequently in two sections,
the first part in Latin, the second in English. If a bond exists for this
case, it would certainly end whatever question there is as the relationship to
Edward Bagley should be stated again in Latin, and then in English.

Paul


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