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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-06 > 0993701027


From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
Subject: Re: Plantagenet Correct Usage?
Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2001 05:03:47 +0100
References: <v3x_6.71$1o3.3566@eagle.america.net>, <01a301c0ff83$5a3fc060$0101a8c0@rosie>


Indeed.

I *do* get the drift.

Saints Preserve Us From "Educators" With an Axe To Grind.
--

D. Spencer Hines

Lux et Veritas et Libertas

"Much have I travelled in the realms of gold, And many goodly states and
kingdoms seen; Round many western islands have I been, Which bards in
fealty to Apollo hold." -- John Keats [1795-1821] -- Poems [1817] -- "On
First Looking Into Chapman's Homer"

All replies to the newsgroup please. Thank you kindly.

All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the
author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an
attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly
given, in writing.

Vires et Honor.

"Rosie Bevan" <> wrote in message
news:01a301c0ff83$5a3fc060$...

| I remember lots on the reform movement of the nineteenth century and
the
| Russian Revolution. The only other 20th century history I recall was
the
| origins of the first World War. But I think you astutely get my drift.
|
| (The reason I studied the French Revolution 3 times was that we moved
to
| different areas. In those days the education curriculum was devised by
local
| government. I don't know whether it still does or whether there is a
| national one.)
|
| Cheers
|
| Rosie
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
| To: <>
| Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 2:57 PM
| Subject: Re: Plantagenet Correct Usage?
|
|
| > You are quite welcome, Rosie ---- and thank you for your kind
remarks.
| >
| > Your comments below are quite fascinating ---- and I suspect right
on
| > target. Genealogy is a Major Gateway into the study of Mediaeval
| > History. Once people understand that they are actually *descended*
from
| > these people in the Mediaeval History books ---- particularly if
they
| > can prove specific lines ---- they perk up their ears ---- and start
| > reading and listening ---- the smart ones ---- whereas before, as
you
| > say, they probably were just inclined to ignore it.
| >
| > I see you studied the French Revolution three times. Was there also
| > lots on the English Reform Movement of the 19th Century ---- the
| > Chartists ---- Cobden and Bright ---- as well as the Paris Commune
and
| > the Russian Revolution ---- Ramsay MacDonald ---- the General Strike
of
| > 1926 ---- Clement Atlee?
| >
| > Did they spend a fair amount of time on the Fabian Socialists,
Beatrice
| > and Sidney Webb, George Bernard Shaw, et. al.?
| >
| > Cheers,
| >
| > Spencer
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| >
| > From: "Rosie Bevan"
| >
| > Subject: Re: Plantagenet Correct Usage?
| >
| > | Thank you very much Spencer for your erudite explanation.
| > |
| > | 11. You may have a point here, but you can't imagine what you
don't
| > know.
| > |
| > | The English education system probably has a lot to answer for. The
| > school
| > | curriculum in the sixties and seventies (I won't go into the
confused
| > | political influences behind it) either had an emphasis on
Commonwealth
| > | history or social change and revolution from the Civil War
(English)
| > | onwards. Medieval history was ignored and pushed to the back of
the
| > | cupboard. I am well versed in the French Revolution (which I
covered
| > no less
| > | than 3 times!). It wasn't until I got to university in New Zealand
| > that I
| > | had the chance to study early European/English medieval history.
| > |
| > | There is also a problem of ownership. Before the advent of the
| > internet, not
| > | many people in the UK had an interest in genealogy, nor an
interest in
| > the
| > | past. There was little searching for one's roots because there had
| > been
| > | little deviation away from them geographically. The class system
was
| > | considered a fairly rigid animal which meant that the liklihood of
the
| > | average person being descended from the ruling classes, was not
| > something
| > | one would expect. This means that there was/is not much
identification
| > with
| > | the Plantagenets, Nevilles, Percys and their scions. When I
started
| > | searching out on my own family history in Delapre Abbey,
Northampton,
| > 20
| > | years ago I never expected or imagined that I would eventually
find
| > any of
| > | these.
| > |
| > | The chances are that as genealogy is becoming more popular in the
UK,
| > more
| > | people are rediscovering their heritage and hopefully the
education
| > system,
| > | if it hasn't already done so, will cater for all aspects of
British
| > history.
| > |
| > | I would be interested to know what is happening in the UK at
present.
| > |
| > | Cheers
| > |
| > | Rosie
| > | ----- Original Message -----
| > | From: "D. Spencer Hines" <>
| > | To: <>
| > | Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2001 12:47 PM
| > | Subject: Re: Plantagenet Correct Usage?
| > |
| > |
| > | > 1. Thank you, Rosie.
| > | >
| > | > 2. *Totally* different Edward.
| > | >
| > | > 3. *Not* Edward, Prince of Wales, Duke of Cornwall and Earl of
| > Chester,
| > | > Earl of Pembroke ---- son of Edward IV ---- the elder Prince in
the
| > | > Tower ---- Edward V ---- who probably died in 1483. He would
have
| > been
| > | > 17 in 1487. Lambert Simnell, the ten-year-old, could hardly
have
| > | > impersonated him. Dates do matter in History. <g>
| > | >
| > | > 4. Edward, 18th Earl of Warwick, son of George, Duke of
Clarence,
| > elder
| > | > brother of Richard III, he of the butt of Malmsey. This Edward
was
| > | > beheaded on 28 Nov 1499 by Henry VII's order.
| > | >
| > | > 5. Why didn't Henry VII produce Edward, Earl of Warwick?
| > | >
| > | > 6. Well, the Complete Peerage says he did, briefly, in 1487,
during
| > the
| > | > Lambert Simnel impersonation. Edward was reportedly taken in
| > procession
| > | > to St. Paul's one Sunday, to hear Mass ---- so that he could be
seen
| > and
| > | > recognised. This may well have been the last time he passed
outside
| > the
| > | > Tower. [CP XII, Part 2:396 and note d.]
| > | >
| > | > 7. Edward, Earl of Warwick ---- and some say Earl of Salisbury,
| > | > probably incorrectly ---- did have a supposedly trumped up trial
of
| > | > sorts before Henry Tudor dispatched him. Edward was
| > | > accused of conspiring high treason with a fellow prisoner,
Perkin
| > | > Warbeck. The Earl of Oxford was appointed Lord High Steward of
| > England
| > | > to preside at his trial, of which there is an official report.
| > | >
| > | > 8. Henry Tudor's strategy may have been to let Edward languish
in
| > | > prison, not being educated ---- similar to being imprisoned in
many
| > | > American High Schools. ---- This would make him obviously unfit
to
| > | > assume any high-ranking, official duties as he grew older.
| > | >
| > | > 9. Then waiting for an opportune moment ---- as dissatisfaction
| > with
| > | > Yorkist plots in the realm increased and as Henry Tudor
consolidated
| > his
| > | > power base, created new centres of power and saw to it that
others
| > | > withered ---- as he grew his stable of New Men and felt more
secure
| > and
| > | > ready to call in some IOU's ---- he struck. But he waited 14
years
| > | > after Bosworth Field before he liquidated Edward, Earl of
Warwick.
| > | >
| > | > 10. Smart, wily, clever fellow that Henry Tudor ---- good,
tough,
| > | > ruthless leader ---- for a Mediaeval King.
| > | >
| > | > 11. You know, I think that may be the fundamental problem here,
| > Rosie.
| > | > People just can't think like ---- and put themselves inside the
| > heads
| > | > of ---- Medieval English Kings and Queens anymore.
Slacked-Arsed
| > | > Democracy has bred it right out of them. : )
| > | >
| > | > Cheers,
| > | >
| > | > Spencer


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