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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-08 > 0998547356


From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <>
Subject: Re: Walderne de St. Clair
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:16:49 -0600
References: <01c12b0f$dde59900$LocalHost@fti/62hzcyc>


Annie Natalelli-Waloszek wrote:
>
> Now, one of the interesting parts of this line, is the earlier, norse
> lineage... we have already part of the line back to Odin & Thor here...

This line is completely bogus, of course, but it does make for
good fireside chat.

> The Scandinavian Earls of Orkney trace their descent from the noblest
> and most heroic of the ruling dynasties of the north.Ivan, Princd of the
> Uplands in Norway,

That's Ivar, not Ivan, and you have promoted him to Prince? In
the original source, he was just Jarl.

> who clamed a descent from the deified hero Thor,

Umm, no. Ivar is claimed to have descended from (note that we
have no evidence of what he claimed, in the unlikely case that he
actually existed) Fornjot, King of Finland and Kvenland. It
certainly doesn't surprise me that someone would not be satisfied
with this fabular descent and add even more, but that's all the
Orkneyinga Saga claims. I suspect though that there is some
confusion with the brothers Gor and Nor (but not Thor), who do
appear in the fable.

> was the
> father of Eystein, who had issue Rogenwald and Malarcle. the latter was
> ancestor of the great Norman race of De Toeny,

Another late invention - as Rollo doesn't appear to have come
from this family, then his supposed kin the Toenys didn't either
(their earliest documented ancestor, Hugh de Cavalcamp, was
French, not Norman - so much for these ancient pedigrees).

> who were the hereditary
> Standard Bearers of Normandy, and from whom the house of Lindsay is
> descended.

What is the basis for this claim?

> Rogenwald was a supporter of King Harold Harfage and assisted him

[snip]

> Orkney and Shetland Islands... one of his sons, Rollo, conquered Neustria,
> founded the soveirgn Duchy of Normandy & was ancestor to Wm the
> Conqueror....

Or not.

> Sigurd, 2nd earl of Orkney, was slain at Clontarf in 1014, m a dau &
> coheir of Malcolm II, king of Scotland,

Not coheir. Malcolm is said to have given Caithness to Thorfinn,
but Malcolm had one heir - Duncan (not even Duncan's mother, or
his father, jure uxoris). This, by the way, assumes that it is
Malcolm II being refered to, rather than Macbeth's cousin and
predecessor, as Hudson would have us think.

> his line sharing with the royals of
> Great Britain, the honours as heirs of the Pictish kings

The Picts had no honors pass to heirs. They appear to have been
conquered and absorbed by the Kenneth MacAlpin, who claimed to be
their king, but heir is a different matter, and no genealogical
connection can be established, not that that has stopped anyone.

> Paul, Earl of Orkney who in 1066 accompanied King Harold Hardrada in his
> ill-omened expedition against England, m the dau of Earl Haco & Princess
> Ragenhilda, dau of Magnus, the good king of Norway who d 1048... the
> descendants of this line becoming the ancestors of a branch of the royal
> family of Norway, today....

Again, probably not, with all of the unrecognized illegitimate
sons returning from abroad to claim their inheritance (just like
Lambert Simnel, but successful).

> The remote ancestor of William St Clair was a noble Norman Baron,
> descended from Waleran, (your Waldern, no doubt) Count of St Clair in
> Normandy,

There was no such County in Normandy. Is there any basis for
this descent other than the fact the the two had the same toponym
(assuming Waleran is not invented).

> by a dau of Richard, the Norman duke,

Neither Richard I, II, nor III had a daughter who married (or had
a child outside of marriage by) a Waleran of St. Clair.

> His descendant, Wm St Clair, Lord of Rosslyn, companion at arms to King
> Robert Bruce,

So you have a gap here of a couple hundred years. Are there
specific names in between? DO any of them appear in any
contemporary documents?

taf

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