GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-10 > 1002603196
From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Corrected Mowbray Royal Ancestry for Robert Abell, Richard More & John Oxenbridge
Date: 8 Oct 2001 21:53:16 -0700
Dear Chris ~
Thank you for your latest post regarding the Mowbray family. Having
carefully reviewed the citations you provide below, it is clear that
John de Mowbray, 4th Lord Mowbray's first children by his wife,
Elizabeth de Segrave, were a daughter, Eleanor, born in 1364, and a
son, John, born in 1365. This is spite of the fact that John and
Elizabeth were married in 1349 and probably consumated their marriage
As for Margaret Mowbray, wife of Sir Reginald Lucy, she had to be
least age 7 for her to consent to her marriage in 1369. This means
that Margaret Mowbray was born in or before 1362. If correct, then it
is chronologically impossible for her to have been the daughter of
John de Mowbray by Elizabeth de Segrave.
Rather, it would appear that Margaret Mowbray belongs in the previous
generation of the Mowbray family, as daughter of John de Mowbray, 3rd
Lord Mowbray (born 1310, died 1361), by his 2nd wife, Elizabeth de
Vere, daughter of John de Vere, 7th Earl of Oxford. We know for
certain that John de Mowbray, 3rd Lord Mowbray, had issue by Elizabeth
de Vere as she was pregnant with his child when they received a papal
dispensation to remain in marriage in 1351. Elizabeth de Vere was
evidently much younger than John de Mowbray, 3rd Lord Mowbray, as I
show her previous husband, Hugh de Courtenay, was born in 1327, and
died before 2 September 1349.
Pushing Margaret Mowbray one generation back in the Mowbray family
deprives her of descents from Kings Edward I and Henry III. However,
she still has several interesting royal descents, among them the
following descent below:
1. Henry II, King of England, by a mistress, Ida.
2. William Longespee, Earl of Salisbury, married Ela of Salisbury.
3. Ida Longespee, married William de Beauchamp, Baron of Bedford, co.
4. Maud de Beauchamp, married Roger de Mowbray, Baron of Thirsk, co.
York, born about 1220, died 1263.
5. Roger de Mowbray, Baron of Thirsk, co. York, born 1257, died 1297,
married Rose de Clare.
6. John de Mowbray, Baron of Axholme, co. Lincoln, Thirsk, co. York,
born 1286, died 1322, married Aline de Breuse.
7. John de Mowbray, Knt., Baron of Axholme, co. Lincoln, lord of Gower
in Wales, born 1310, died 1361, married c. 1351 Elizabeth de Vere.
8. Margaret Mowbray, married 1369, Reginald Lucy, Knt., died 1437.
As for other new information, I've learned that Reginald and Margaret
(Mowbray) Lucy had a daughter (name not known) who married John
Constantine. The daughter had a son William Constantine who was
involved in a Chancery suit regarding his uncle, Walter Lucy's estate.
The citation for the suit is C1/17/403. Presumably there are living
descendants of the Lucy-Constantine marriage.
Again many thanks Chris for clarifying the chronology of the Mowbray
family for us.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
(Chris Phillips) wrote in message news:<00e901c1501e$80090400$>...
> I've looked at some of the sources cited by the Complete Peerage for the
> Mowbray and Lucy articles.
> (1) 28 April 1369 Westminster
> The like [Inspeximus and confirmation of] of the following, notwithstanding
> &c [that the isle and the manor are held in chief and in the king's ward]
> (in French):-
> Letters patent of the said John [John de Moubray, lord of then isle of
> Axiholm, deceased], dated at Eppeworth on the Annunciation, 38 Edward III
> [25 March 1364], granting for life to his servant John de Disworth for the
> news which he brought him of the deliverance of his wife of Eleanor her
> first daughter, an annuity of 40s. out of the manor of Melton Moubray, with
> power of distraint.
> [Cal. Pat. Rolls 1367-70, p.237. There is another inspeximus of this grant
> in Cal. Pat. Rolls 1399-1401, p.525]
> (2) 2 April 1369 Windsor
> Inspeximus of an indenture (in French) of John de Moubray of Axiholm, lord
> of the honour of Brembre, deceased, dated at the manor of Melton Moubray, co
> Leicester, on Wednesday after St Laurence, 39 Edward III [13 August 1365],
> granting to Joan de Canleye, damsel of his wife, for bringing news of the
> birth of his eldest son, a rent of 10 marks out of the said manor for life;
> and confirmation of the same, notwithstanding that the manor is held in
> chief and is now in the king's hand by reason of his wardship of the heir of
> the said John.
> [Cal. Pat. Rolls 1367-70, p.236.]
> (3) Thomas de Moubray, Duke of Norfolk [the younger son of John de Moubray
> and Elizabeth] was said to have been 33 years of age on 24 March 1398/9
> [Cal. Inq. p.m., vol.18, nos 235,236], 33 years and more on 11 August 1399
> [no 270] - both these dates said to be the date when his grandmother
> Margaret, Duke of Norfolk, died - and 33 years and 26 weeks at his own
> death, 22 September 1399 [no 268].
> [Complete Peerage, volume 9, page 601, deduces that he had been born 22
> March 1365/6. But this is impossible if his elder brother were born 1 August
> 1365. Presumably the age given is wrong - if the "26 weeks" is really a
> precise indication, he must have been born 22 March 1366/7 or 1367/8]
> (4) 10 October 1367. John de Moubray of Axiholm, "chivaler", going beyond
> seas by the king's licence ... letters nominating attorneys
> [Cal. Pat. Rolls 1367-70, p.22. Further letters were issued 20 October 1368
> for John de Moubray of Axiholm, "chivaler", _staying_ beyond seas by the
> king's licence. John seems to have been dead by then.].
> (5) 25 October 1367. Licence to John de Moubray, lord of Axiholm, to cross
> from the port of Dover [etc] [Cal. Pat. Rolls 1367-70, p.53].
> (6) Reynold de Lucy and Margaret his wife to Richard Wattus of Dalygton.
> Confirmation of a writing of manumission [text on roll but not in printed
> edition], dated Daligton, 1 March 2 Richard II [1378/9], and made by Sir
> Geoffrey de Lucy knight lord of Dalygton and father of the said Reynold.
> Dated Chelmuscote, 7 March 2 Richard II [1378/9].
> Memorandum of acknowledgment, 9 March.
> [Cal. Close Rolls 1377-81, p.233]
> So Eleanor is described as the eldest daughter of Elizabeth, and if
> Margaret, the wife of Reynold Lucy, was also a daughter of Elizabeth, the
> only possibility would be that she was conceived soon before her father left
> England around October 1367, and born in 1368. (Unless, I suppose she was a
> twin of John or Thomas.)
> This would make her about a year old at her marriage, probably 10 years old
> at the time of the manumission confirmed by her and her husband above, and
> if it's correct that her son Walter was married by 1385, only about 17 by
> One other point is that there doesn't seem to be much room, either, to fit
> in another daughter Joan, who was mentioned previously as the wife of Sir
> Thomas Gray, of Heton and Wark-on-Tweed, Northumberland. Complete Peerage
> (vol.6, p.136) makes no comment about her parentage.
> Chris Phillips
|Corrected Mowbray Royal Ancestry for Robert Abell, Richard More & John Oxenbridge by (Douglas Richardson)|