Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-10 > 1003276188

From: "Leo van de Pas" <>
Subject: Re: New Evidence for Parentage of Alice (Camoys) Hastings
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:49:48 +0800
References: <>, <146801c155f1$40f59480$04794fcb@cbevan>, <> <>

Dear Brad,
You did a bit of correct guessing about Elizabeth Widville's descent from
Henry III.

Henry III King of England
Beatrice of England
Marie de Bretagne
Jean de Chatillon St.Pol
Mahaut de Chatillon St.Pol
Jean de Luxembourg
Pierre de Luxembourg
Jacquetta de Luxembourg
Elizabeth Widville

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Verity <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: New Evidence for Parentage of Alice (Camoys) Hastings

> (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message
> > Interestingly, there is another piece of evidence which has a bearing
> > on this matter which I think has been overlooked. Back in the 1460's,
> > Elizabeth Wydville, then Lady Grey, a widow, arranged for a marriage
> > between her son and one of Lord Hastings' daughters, yet unborn. If
> > Lord Hastings had no daughter born within a certain time period, then
> > Lady Grey's son was to marry a daughter of Lord Hastings' brother or
> > of his sister, Anne Ferrers. Inasmuch as Elizabeth Wydville had
> > royal ancestry herself and her Grey son was descended from King Edward
> > III, it is doubtful she would have contracted a marriage for her son
> > with the Hastings family unless the Hastings family had a similar
> > descent from royal ancestry.
> Douglas, I'm going to respectfully disagree with your logic here.
> First, what was the descent of John Grey (Elizabeth Woodville's first
> husband) from Edward III? As far as I can determine, he could claim
> descent from Edward I through the Ferrers of Groby and Mowbrays, but I
> don't see Edward III in his ancestry.
> I also don't see ANY immediate royal ancestry for Elizabeth Woodville
> - her mother Jacquetta of Luxembourg was the widowed Duchess of
> Bedford (and thus aunt by marriage to Henry VI), and the Luxembourgs
> were distinguished French nobility, but I don't believe they were
> descended from 15th or 14th century French Kings. It's POSSIBLE
> Jacquetta was descended from Henry III of England through his daughter
> Beatrice's many Brittany descendants, but Elizabeth Woodville was
> likely not aware of the details of this descent, if so.
> The Woodvilles were very much a minor gentry family when Elizabeth
> married Edward IV.
> > This is all the more true since the
> > contract between Lady Grey and Lord Hastings was prepared within days
> > of her own marriage to King Edward IV.
> Herein lies the key: Elizabeth's betrothal days before her own wedding
> of her son (I'm assuming it was her elder boy Thomas Grey, the future
> Marquess of Dorset) to a daughter of Lord Hastings was a shrewd
> political maneuver. Hastings was a very close friend and confidant of
> Edward IV. Should anything happen to Elizabeth after her marriage
> (which was a HUGE risk), her son would be allied through marriage to
> the close inner circle of the King. It also helped tremendously that
> Lady Hastings, her son's future mother-in-law, was the sister of
> Warwick the Kingmaker - arguably the most powerful man in England at
> the time. On their part, Lord and Lady Hastings would be happy to
> have the soon-to-be-stepson of the King of England for a son-in-law,
> and it might very well be they who initiated the betrothal instead of
> Elizabeth Woodville.
> I'd guess that this Grey/Hastings betrothal was politically motivated,
> first and foremost.
> > That Lord Hastings had royal ancestry and not just his wife is
> > indicated by Lady Grey's willingness to marry her son to a child of
> > Lord Hastings' brother or sister should Lord Hastings' wife not bear a
> > daughter.
> I don't see that royal ancestry was a factor - sounds more like a
> timing issue. Elizabeth Woodville was about to marry the King of
> England and face the wrath of the establishment for doing so. Edward
> IV still was shaky on his throne. She could die in childbirth, the
> marriage could be annulled - there was not a large window,
> timing-wise, of assured power. The alliance of her son with the
> Hastings family would need to be secured without the luxury of waiting
> for an eventual daughter to be born.
> > In the light of the prevaling custom of marrying one's
> > children to equals in society, this marriage contract can be viewed as
> > indirect evidence that Lord Hastings was probably descended in some
> > manner from King Edward III. Again, looking at the Hastings and
> > Camoys family tree, if Lord Hastings' grandmother was Elizabeth
> > Mortimer, he would have a perfectly good descent from King Edward III.
> > If Elizabeth de Louches was her grandmother, he would not.
> The Woodvilles had no descent from Edward III, and Elizabeth's Grey
> sons could, at best, claim descent from Edward I. If royal descent
> from a Plantagenet king was the criterion for noble marriages in the
> 1460s, why did many of the leading families line up to marry their
> heirs to Elizabeth Woodville's bevy of unmarried younger sisters?
> Marriages, especially during the turbulent War of the Roses, were
> politically motivated - Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's marriage
> being a rare exception.
> > I think the next step in this process is for us to examine the
> > chronology of the Hastings family to see if it fits with Lord
> > Hastings' mother, Alice Camoys, being a daughter of Elizabeth
> > Mortimer.
> Yes, this sounds like a very productive route to take. Elizabeth
> Woodville aside, I think you've uncovered some corroborative evidence
> that Alice Camoys Hastings was a daughter of Elizabeth Mortimer
> Camoys. Chronology would certainly help, and perhaps further research
> into how and why Lord Hastings came to be so close to the sons of the
> Duke of York in the first place? If York biographer P.A. Johnson saw
> kinship as the reason, perhaps there is further reference in
> contemporary York/Hastings documents.
> Also, what details do you have on Roger Camoys, the son of Elizabeth
> Mortimer Camoys? I notice he is referred to as "Lord Camoys" in an
> above post, but CP has no mention of him. Is there another source
> that I can find out more about him?
> Many thanks and best regards, ---------Brad Verity

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