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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-10 > 1003276188


From: "Leo van de Pas" <>
Subject: Re: New Evidence for Parentage of Alice (Camoys) Hastings
Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2001 07:49:48 +0800
References: <5cf47a19.0110142118.21528704@posting.google.com>, <146801c155f1$40f59480$04794fcb@cbevan>, <5cf47a19.0110160620.77182e07@posting.google.com> <8ed1b63.0110161344.4c6d00d2@posting.google.com>


Dear Brad,
You did a bit of correct guessing about Elizabeth Widville's descent from
Henry III.

Henry III King of England
\
Beatrice of England
\
Marie de Bretagne
\
Jean de Chatillon St.Pol
\
Mahaut de Chatillon St.Pol
\
Jean de Luxembourg
\
Pierre de Luxembourg
\
Jacquetta de Luxembourg
\
Elizabeth Widville
1437-1492

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas

----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Verity <>
To: <>
Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2001 5:44 AM
Subject: Re: New Evidence for Parentage of Alice (Camoys) Hastings


> (Douglas Richardson) wrote in message
>
> > Interestingly, there is another piece of evidence which has a bearing
> > on this matter which I think has been overlooked. Back in the 1460's,
> > Elizabeth Wydville, then Lady Grey, a widow, arranged for a marriage
> > between her son and one of Lord Hastings' daughters, yet unborn. If
> > Lord Hastings had no daughter born within a certain time period, then
> > Lady Grey's son was to marry a daughter of Lord Hastings' brother or
> > of his sister, Anne Ferrers. Inasmuch as Elizabeth Wydville had
> > royal ancestry herself and her Grey son was descended from King Edward
> > III, it is doubtful she would have contracted a marriage for her son
> > with the Hastings family unless the Hastings family had a similar
> > descent from royal ancestry.
>
> Douglas, I'm going to respectfully disagree with your logic here.
> First, what was the descent of John Grey (Elizabeth Woodville's first
> husband) from Edward III? As far as I can determine, he could claim
> descent from Edward I through the Ferrers of Groby and Mowbrays, but I
> don't see Edward III in his ancestry.
>
> I also don't see ANY immediate royal ancestry for Elizabeth Woodville
> - her mother Jacquetta of Luxembourg was the widowed Duchess of
> Bedford (and thus aunt by marriage to Henry VI), and the Luxembourgs
> were distinguished French nobility, but I don't believe they were
> descended from 15th or 14th century French Kings. It's POSSIBLE
> Jacquetta was descended from Henry III of England through his daughter
> Beatrice's many Brittany descendants, but Elizabeth Woodville was
> likely not aware of the details of this descent, if so.
>
> The Woodvilles were very much a minor gentry family when Elizabeth
> married Edward IV.
>
> > This is all the more true since the
> > contract between Lady Grey and Lord Hastings was prepared within days
> > of her own marriage to King Edward IV.
>
> Herein lies the key: Elizabeth's betrothal days before her own wedding
> of her son (I'm assuming it was her elder boy Thomas Grey, the future
> Marquess of Dorset) to a daughter of Lord Hastings was a shrewd
> political maneuver. Hastings was a very close friend and confidant of
> Edward IV. Should anything happen to Elizabeth after her marriage
> (which was a HUGE risk), her son would be allied through marriage to
> the close inner circle of the King. It also helped tremendously that
> Lady Hastings, her son's future mother-in-law, was the sister of
> Warwick the Kingmaker - arguably the most powerful man in England at
> the time. On their part, Lord and Lady Hastings would be happy to
> have the soon-to-be-stepson of the King of England for a son-in-law,
> and it might very well be they who initiated the betrothal instead of
> Elizabeth Woodville.
>
> I'd guess that this Grey/Hastings betrothal was politically motivated,
> first and foremost.
>
> > That Lord Hastings had royal ancestry and not just his wife is
> > indicated by Lady Grey's willingness to marry her son to a child of
> > Lord Hastings' brother or sister should Lord Hastings' wife not bear a
> > daughter.
>
> I don't see that royal ancestry was a factor - sounds more like a
> timing issue. Elizabeth Woodville was about to marry the King of
> England and face the wrath of the establishment for doing so. Edward
> IV still was shaky on his throne. She could die in childbirth, the
> marriage could be annulled - there was not a large window,
> timing-wise, of assured power. The alliance of her son with the
> Hastings family would need to be secured without the luxury of waiting
> for an eventual daughter to be born.
>
> > In the light of the prevaling custom of marrying one's
> > children to equals in society, this marriage contract can be viewed as
> > indirect evidence that Lord Hastings was probably descended in some
> > manner from King Edward III. Again, looking at the Hastings and
> > Camoys family tree, if Lord Hastings' grandmother was Elizabeth
> > Mortimer, he would have a perfectly good descent from King Edward III.
> > If Elizabeth de Louches was her grandmother, he would not.
>
> The Woodvilles had no descent from Edward III, and Elizabeth's Grey
> sons could, at best, claim descent from Edward I. If royal descent
> from a Plantagenet king was the criterion for noble marriages in the
> 1460s, why did many of the leading families line up to marry their
> heirs to Elizabeth Woodville's bevy of unmarried younger sisters?
>
> Marriages, especially during the turbulent War of the Roses, were
> politically motivated - Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville's marriage
> being a rare exception.
>
> > I think the next step in this process is for us to examine the
> > chronology of the Hastings family to see if it fits with Lord
> > Hastings' mother, Alice Camoys, being a daughter of Elizabeth
> > Mortimer.
>
> Yes, this sounds like a very productive route to take. Elizabeth
> Woodville aside, I think you've uncovered some corroborative evidence
> that Alice Camoys Hastings was a daughter of Elizabeth Mortimer
> Camoys. Chronology would certainly help, and perhaps further research
> into how and why Lord Hastings came to be so close to the sons of the
> Duke of York in the first place? If York biographer P.A. Johnson saw
> kinship as the reason, perhaps there is further reference in
> contemporary York/Hastings documents.
>
> Also, what details do you have on Roger Camoys, the son of Elizabeth
> Mortimer Camoys? I notice he is referred to as "Lord Camoys" in an
> above post, but CP has no mention of him. Is there another source
> that I can find out more about him?
>
> Many thanks and best regards, ---------Brad Verity
>
>


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