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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-10 > 1004217123


From: Tim Powys-Lybbe <>
Subject: Re: Joan de Carreu, wife of Guy de Brian
Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 22:12:03 +0100
References: <3bd9f0c8$0$9827$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>, <20011026200220.24558.00000110@mb-cj.aol.com>, <3BDA09B7.8E7621C3@scs.uiuc.edu>


In message <>
Doug McDonald <> wrote:

> Cdunn3 wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >Yes and no. This Joan was the mother of Elizabeth who married
> > >Robert Fitzpayn, my source is C.P. II:361. This whole line was
> > >much discussed in 1998, try the thread CP XIV: FitzPayn, Grey,
> > >Bryan [VERY LONG!] @
> > >http://groups.google.com/groups?q=fitzpayn&hl=en&lr=lang_en&rnum=
> > >1&selm=19981020062403.28813.00003281%40ng153.aol.com for more
> > >information.
> > >
> > >regards
> > >Louise
> > Louise and Doug,
> > Thanks. I did mean Robert (not Richard)
> > FitzPayn. Searching the reference given
> > by Louise, Paul Reed indicates that
> > Joan de Carreu was "said to be" daughter
> > of John de Carreu.
> > Is this the current thinking?
> > Which John de Carreu ?
> > Thanks again.
> > Carl Dunn
>
> Tim Powys-Lybbe has a strangeness at this point in his huge GEDCOM.
> There is a disconnect between two Joan Carreu/Carews. Are these separate
> families? He lists Joan as the daughter of the John Carew d.1324 by his
> second wife Joanna Talbot. The Joan de Carreu he lists as wife of Guy de
> Bryan
> he lists as dying aft. 1348. Joan's grandddaughter Isabel FitzPayn is
> listed as
> being born before 1365. Joan's brother John Lord Carew is listed as
> being born 1311.

These days at least my next-to-be released version should contain some
references and for Joan de Carreu, whose parents I do not know, they
are:

CP V, 463 where CP uses the phrase of Joan that she was "da., it is
said, of Sir John de Carreu of Carew, co Pembroke". With that caution,
I refrained from adding in any ancestry; I can even consider myself
wrong to call her "de Carreu".

CP has on p. 463 note (3) "This Joan was living 12 Apr 1348", hence died
after 1348.

CP on p. 464 says of Isabel FitzPayn "aged 28 and more or 30 and more in
1393" (probably from different IPMs) hence born before 1365.

I do not know of Joan's brother (above). But I got the death of a
Sir John Carew (possibly "Lord of Carew" but not "Lord Carew") as 1362
from his article in the British Dictionary of National Biography.
Regrettably DNB, an earlier document than CP, does not give off quite
the same degree of scholarship as CP and varies from author to author;
so I do not know what credence to give to its info on John Carew.
However this John Carew was of Moulsford berks and had various estates
in ireland; I do not think he had estates at Carew, Pembs; so it may not
be justifiable to identify him with the supposed father of Joan (de
Carreu), wife of Guy de Briene.

> Thus within this mess lies the chronological possibility of it being
> either John.
>
> We need expert help which, as fas as I can tell, does not lie
> within the annals of soc.genealogy.medieval.

The Carews are fraught with difficulty. Undoubtedly a family existed in
Saxon and early Norman times. The above DNB article is unclear and
admits it. Round did a major work on them in 1903 (Ancestor, Vol V, pp.
19-53) but found he had the odd gap in the documents. Further Round
uncovered some fabrications (grist to his mill!) in the 1568 Carew
pedigree. Some of the gaps were closed by work of Patrick
Montague-Smith and published in No 17 of the annual Reports of the
Friends of Lydiard Tregoze. Mrs Joan Carew Richardson assisted
Montague-Smith in this work and has made a study of all Carews, ancient
and modern; she has kindly furnished me with her findings.

> PErhaps someone can help.
>
> Doug McDonald

--
Tim Powys-Lybbe
For a patchwork of bygones: http://powys.org


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