Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-11 > 1006599343

From: "B.M. Kamp" <>
Subject: A Galloway as hostage (was Clemence de Verdun)
Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 11:55:43 +0100
References: <>

Douglas Richardson wrote:

> A contemporary example of a hostage who was placed with a relative is
> the unnamed daughter of Alan Fitz Roland, lord of Galloway, who about
> the year 1212 was placed with Robert Fitz Roger, ancestor of the
> Clavering family. Alan's wife (and the mother of the child) was a
> niece of Robert Fitz Roger. The child died while being held hostage
> in England.

It seems that this statement contains a elements of the answer to my earlier
question concerning the mother of Helen of Galloway, married (about 1220) to
Roger de Quincy, 2nd earl of Winchester. CP says Helen was the second but
eldest surviving daughter of Alan of Galloway. Apparently the unnamed
daughter, held as hostage, was then the eldest child.

Two members of this group mentioned a Helen of the Isles (or de Lisle) as
mother of Helen of Galloway. Helen of the Isles "said to be the daughter of
Reginal (Lord of the Isles) MacSomerled". Reginald is mentioned in CP under
Isles as the first to be styled "lord of the Isles", without any reference
to his wife or to a daughter. He died 1207.

Combining these two pieces of information Helen of the Isles would then be
a daughter of Reginald Lord of the Isles and his wife, sister of Roger Fitz
Roger. I wonder if there is any information confirming this theory.

Who were the parents of Roger fitz Roger? Is it known how Robert fitz Roger
(x ca 1260 Margery de La Zouche), discussed earlier by this group (Euphemia
de Clavering) descends from Roger fitz Roger? Chronogically it seems
unlikely that Robert is son of this Roger.

Thanks in advance and regards to all,

Bert M. Kamp

> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
> E-mail:
> P.S. Two examples of well known couples who failed to obtain the
> required dispensation for marriage are Eleanor of Aquitaine and her
> first husband, King Louis of France, and, Alan Fitz Roland and his 2nd
> wife, Margaret of Huntingdon. Both couples surely knew they were near
> related and married anyway. King Louis subsequently asked for a
> divorce from Eleanor on grounds of consanguinity. Alan and Margaret
> subsequently obtained a dispensation for their consanguinity and
> remained married.
> ______________________________

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