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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2001-12 > 1007901291


From: Marin-Guzman <>
Subject: Re: Sancho Ramirez of Aragon
Date: Sun, 09 Dec 2001 23:34:51 +1100
References: <3C1010B7.9A422DE7@interfold.com>, <a9b2ce02.0112081651.4ed9524d@posting.google.com>, <3C12E6AC.D8D7DDC3@interfold.com>


Lacarra seems to be in no doubt Estefania and Ermesinda were daughters of
Bernardo Roger, Count de Foix & Couserans, and Garsinda heiress to Bigorra.

He remarks, at length, upon the very close relations and paralels between
Ramiro I and Garcia "el de Najera', to the point they both end up marrying
sisters, daughters of Bernardo Roger.

(Both Ramiro and Garcia, in their youth, had an illegitimate child and both
named the child Sancho. Later, when married to the sisters, both of their
first borns are again named Sancho.)

Garcia marries Estefania in 1038, and Ramiro in 1036 marries Gilberga who,
Lacarra maintains, later changed her name to Ermesinda.

Both were nieces of Ermesinda, Countess of Barcelona and mother of Berenguer
Ramon I.

Regards,

Pedro Marín-Guzmán


------------------------------------------------------------------------






> From: "Todd A. Farmerie" <>
> Organization: As little as I can get away with
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> Date: Sat, 08 Dec 2001 21:21:00 -0700
> Subject: Re: Sancho Ramirez of Aragon
>
> Bryant Smith wrote:
>>
>> "Todd A. Farmerie" <> wrote in message
>> news:<>...
>>
>> <SNIP>
>>
>> [Context: Will of Stephanie, her children's moieties, their names]
>>
>>>
>>> At this time, there was not a French/Spanish division, and the
>>> Counts of Catalonia and Foix spoke the same language and were
>>> part of the same Mediterranean culturo-ethnic group. I doubt an
>>> 'anti-French' bias had anything to do with it.
>>>
>> <SNIP>
>>> Regarding the childrens' names:
>>
>>>
>>> Sancho - paternal grandfather
>>> Ramiro - paternal uncle
>>> Fernando - paternal uncle
>>> Raymond - (it would seem) maternal grandfather
>>> Urraca - paternal great-grandmother
>>> Ermesenda - (it would seem) maternal grandmother
>>> Jimena - paternal great-grandmother, paternal aunt
>>> Mayor - paternal grandmother
>>>
>>> I think with Raymond and Ermesende both here, it tends to
>>> slightly favor the placement of Estefania as daughter of Raymond
>>> Borrell and Ermesenda. However, not strongly, because the Foix
>>> alternative would make Raymond named for paternal uncle and
>>> Ermesenda for paternal aunt. Still, I would have expected to see
>>> the grandparents' names.
>>
>> Todd, you throw a mean curve! I *think* your "Foix" mentions
>> must refer to the Bernard-Roger, Count of Foix and married to
>> Gersende, Countess of Bigorre? And I'm vaguely aware of some
>> confusion around a queen of Navarre involving whether she
>> was a daughter of Ramon Borrell and Ermesinda or of Ermesinda's
>> brother the aforesaid Bernard-Roger; but I'm just too dense
>> to see how this creates a "Foix alternative" in the children
>> of Stephanie. Are you suggesting that Stephanie's father may
>> not have been Ramon Borrell? Or that some of the children names
>> in the will may have been by a husband other than Garcia?
>
> Traditionally, Estefania has been called daughter of Bernard
> Roger, but this is based on a late source, and a more
> contemporary one calls her daughter of the Countess Ermesende.
> (This Catalonian variant has only become popular within the last
> several years.) So, yes, Estefania could have been daughter of
> Bernard Roger, although recent analysis suggests otherwise. How
> would this affect the names? Well, Ramon would not, then, have
> been named for Ramon Borrell, but instead for Raymond Roger,
> brother of Bernard, while Countess Ermesende, while still the
> source of the name of the Infanta Ermesende, would not have been
> her grandmother, but instead her great-aunt. My comment was that
> were Estefania daughter of Bernard and Gersende, I would have
> expected Garcia and Estefania to give these names to children,
> (just as they did Sancha and Mayor) in preference to those of a
> great-uncle and great-aunt, or in other words, the fact that they
> named children Ramon and Ermesende favors the placement of
> Estefania as daughter of Ramon Borrell rather than Bernard Roger.
>
> taf

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