GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-01 > 1010870600
From: Renia <>
Subject: Re: A New Bohun Daughter Discovered
Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 21:23:20 +0000 (UTC)
References: <00e101c19b61$a4b2d180$e23186d9@oemcomputer>, <3C403CCF.296D33B7@DUMPbtinternet.com>, <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Douglas Richardson wrote:
> Renia <> wrote in message news:<>...
> > Chris Phillips wrote:
> > > > From the evidence posted by Douglas Richardson, Theobald de Verdun held a
> > > quarter of the hundred of Bisley in right of his wife Margery, and Peter
> > > Corbet held half of the hundred in right of his wife Joan. According to
> > > Complete Peerage vol.3, p.417, this Joan was the daughter of Ralph de
> > > Mortimer by Gladys Ddu. So, together with the evidence about the Mortimers
> > > later holding a "manor of Bisley", it looks as though there was a division
> > > of this land between the Mortimers and the Bohuns at some point.
> > >
> > > > Cris Nash previously conjectured that Eleanor, second wife of John de Verdun
> > > (Theobald's father), might have been a daughter of Humphrey de Bohun
> > > (d.1265). The Complete Peerage (vol.12, part 2, p.248) had suggested Eleanor
> > > might have been a Bohun, but the only evidence cited is the existence of a
> > > seal, "said to be hers", bearing the Bohun and Verdun arms (citing Staffs
> > > Historical Collections 1913, p.298). Now that we have clearer evidence that
> > > John's son Theobald married a Bohun, maybe it's likelier that this seal
> > > belonged to Margery.
> > >
> > > Unless I've missed a flaw in the evidence, it does seem pretty clear that
> > > Margery was the daughter of Humphrey de Bohun (d.1265). Complete Peerage
> > > gives this Humphrey two wives. The second, Joan de Quency, was a coheir and
> > > died without issue. But there may be a difficulty of consanguinity in making
> > > Margery the daughter of the first wife, Eleanor de Braose. That would mean
> > > that Margery's son, Theobald de Verdun, married his second cousin, because
> > > his wife, Maud de Mortimer, was a granddaughter of Maud de Braose, Eleanor's
> > > sister. Could Humphrey de Bohun have had a third, unrecorded wife? Or could
> > > Margery even have been illegitimate?
> > >
> > > Chris Phillips
> > I'm not really following this thread, but what's the difficulty with 2nd-cousin
> > consanguinity?
> > Renia
> Dear Renia ~
> There is no difficulty is a second cousin marriage.
That's what I thought. I just wondered why Chris saw a difficulty.
> Such marriages
> took place in this period, but usually nothing closer that that.
> Sometimes the couple obtained the required dispensation. Sometimes
> they didn't. Sometimes they obtained a dispensation, which
> dispensation doesn't appear in the published calendars.
> As I indicated in an earlier post, the absense of a dispensation
> proves nothing. It is only when you have a dispensation that you have
> anything to analyze. Even then, I've found at least three instances
> of where people deliberately misled the Pope. The three examples
> include King Edward III, Llywelyn ap Iorwerth, and Philip Basset and
> his wife, Countess Ela.
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah