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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-01 > 1010908082


From: Francisco Antonio Doria <>
Subject: Re: Overall Reliability of Medieval Lineages
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 04:48:10 -0300 (ART)
In-Reply-To: <20020113022936.68023.qmail@web13306.mail.yahoo.com>



Since Bronwen mentioned me, I'll add my twopence to
the discussion. (We are actually having the same
discussion in the Portugal-L list, under the question,
how far can we go?)

There are several of the so-called Royal Gateways in
Brazil in Colonial times:

1) Jeronimo de Albuquerque, Pernambuco (Northeastern
Brazil, c. 1540.).

Agnatic ancestry: the Albuquerque Gomide family,
traceable to c. 1350; through female lines they are
descended (illegitimately) from D. Diniz of Portugal
and D. Sancho IV of Castille. Jeronimo de Albuquerque
was a nobleman, a fidalgo da casa real.

2) Luisa de Mello de Vasconcellos (Bahia, 1551).
Agnatically she was descended from the Vasconcellos
Alvarenga family (traceable up to the 12th century),
but had royal connections through the Albuquerques;
see above. Her brother Bartolomeu de Vasconcellos was
a fidalgo cavaleiro at the king's Court (a kind of
baronet).

3) The Moniz Barreto de Meneses family (several
branches, settled in Bahia and Rio, from 1549 to the
early 1700s). They trace their royal descent from King
D. Afonso III; agnatically they are minor civil
servants in the mid 14th century, but inherit the
whole Portuguese medieval lines through the Barretos.

4) The Moraes de Antas family of S. Paulo, c. 1580 in
Brazil, traceable to King Afonso Henriques (not in the
male line, which goes down from the early Braganção
clan).

5) Hieronimo Dornellas de Menezes, deep South, c.
1720. Agnatically: minor noblemen, of the Ruas family.
But descended from the old Meneses family.

chico

--- Arthur Murata <> escreveu: >
>
> >
> > Pity the poor New Zealander of European origin who
> must
> > first trace the
> > country of origin of his immigrant ancestors -
> who
> > generally would have
> > arrived in the country between 1850 and 1900.
> Being a
> > country of nineteenth
> > century colonial origins those immigrant ancestors
> could
> > have come from
> > anywhere in Europe, in my case they came from
> Ireland,
> > England, Germany &
> > Sweden. Then one must locate the specific parish,
> > village or town from
>
> That, of course, is how it is for most Americans,
> too (I am
> sure that Mr. Doria from Brazil could fill you in on
> some
> of the non-English-speaking countries which are also
> "America"). However, most Americans couldn't care
> less
> about their ancestry; many of my European-derived
> students
> cannot tell me the language of their own surname (so
> far
> this year, I have heard such confusion from a Cooper
> and a
> Schwartz - both very clear with an iota of knowledge
> about
> the world -says something about their families and
> their
> educations to date!) Of course, if you were Maori
> you could
> probably recite your ancestors right back to the
> specific
> boat they came in...or so I have heard.
>
> I have the same problem as you for tracking down
> those
> ancestors who were not royal, noble or rich. You may
> even
> have something of an edge by still being part of
> Britain in
> a technical sense (I don't really know the correct
> political terminology here so excluse my stumble).
> Only a
> small percentage of Americans who are doing
> genealogical
> work can trace their family to a specific ancestor
> in New
> England - most came through Ellis Island on the East
> Coast
> or Angel Island on the West Coast; some (like my
> English
> grandfather) wandered across the Canadian border and
> "forgot" to go back; other Americans wandered or
> swam
> across the other border. This is all why they have
> special
> organizations like "Daughters of the American
> Revolution"
> filled with snobs who like to feel special. I have
> had good
> luck with a few lines in my family, but most of them
> reach
> a dead end at about the point of immigration (except
> for
> those that are not immigrants - I am more than half
> "Indian"). Did immigrants to New Zealand feel a need
> to cut
> their ties with their homeland? Did they feel that
> they
> were transformed from Irish, English, Scottish,
> Welsh
> families into New Zealanders? If you ask my mother
> about
> her ancestry, she'll say "I am just an American" and
> yet
> she is the one with the royal and noble lines I
> uncovered.
> She does not want me to even tell her about them
> (she's
> about to celebrate her 90th birthday) - although her
> sister, who lives 3000 miles from me, wrote me a
> plaintive
> letter asking for information on her grandmother -
> which I
> was able to supply. It seems that only the boys
> received
> genealogical information; the two sisters received
> none but
> their brother, it turns out, had a large chart about
> their
> part of the family that duplicated much of my work.
> It was
> found after he died and his son, who lives about 100
> miles
> from me, found it while going through his
> belongings. If we
> compile all of these stories in an organized way, we
> would
> have a tremendous anthology on the comparative
> experiences
> of colonial great,great grandchildren in different
> countries who are tackling their family histories.
> Anyone
> up for it? I have experience publishing and editing.
> Best,
> Bronwen (I guess we've gotten way off topic at this
> point
> unless you consider that the beginning of most of
> those
> stories takes place at the tail-end of the medieval
> period?)
>
>
> > whence they came or were born, and begin the
> search all
> > over again in each
> > of those various countries!! Not only does one
> encounter
> > the problem of
> > population movement due to the industrial
> revolution, as
> > in British context,
> > but one also is asked to master several new
> languages!!
> >
> > It seems to me, from what Paul and Cris have said,
> that
> > Americans fortunate
> > enough to have substantial New England ancestry
> have a
> > great advantage over
> > those of us on this group with more recent
> colonial
> > ancestors.
> >
> > Renia is correct to say that it seems harder for
> those of
> > us with more
> > recent British ancestry to connect to gentry or
> royalty.
> > I have three such
> > 'gateway' lines, but they have been established
> only
> > after nearly 20 long,
> > but rewarding, years of research and many trips to
> > overseas repositories and
> > libraries.
> >
> > Robert O'Connor
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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