GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-01 > 1010947385
From: (Stewart Baldwin)
Subject: Gwladus, Joan, Tangwystl
Date: Sun, 13 Jan 2002 18:51:45 GMT
I recently took a trip to the Family History Library in SLC, and
although the subject of Gwladus's mother was not one of my primary
research goals there, I did look up a couple of things that add a few
tidbits to what we have already, and I came across one other item of
interest while I was browsing through various journals.
1. From Vinogradoff and Morgan, "Survey of the Honour of Denbigh,
1334" (The British Academy Records of the Social and Economic History
of England and Wales, vol. 1, London, 1914), pp. 127-8:
"... Et altera medietas de Dyncadvel fuit in tenura progeniei Ith' ap
Cadug' ap Ostreid etilla medietas descendit cuidam Hoydylo ap Ith' qui
illam inpignoravit Principi Leonilo ap Ior' pro xiijli, &c. Qui
quidem Princeps dedit dictum pignus cuidam amice sue nomice Tanguestel
Goch' que illam vendidit cuidam Canon ap Lauwar' ..."
Although this does give any evidence regarding the identity of the
mother of Gwladus, it does give independent evidence of the existence
of Llywelyn's lady friend Tangwystl.
2. From "Llyfr achau Robert Vaughan" (a seventeenth century book of
genealogies compiled by the well known genealogist Robert Vaughan,
available on FHL film number 104387), p. 846, the children of Llywelyn
by Tangwystl are said to be Gr[uffudd] and Gwladus, the children by
Joan are said to be Dafydd, Gwenllian, Angh[arad], and Marsred.
Although this is a late compilation, Robert Vaughan made use of many
earlier genealogical manuscripts, including possibly some of the ones
cited by Bartrum that we have not yet had a chance to examine.
3. While browsing through journals, I found another item by Mary E.
Giffin: "A Wigmore Manuscript at the University of Chicago", in
National Library of Wales Journal 7 (1951-2), 316-25. The most
important piece of information to come from this article is the fact
that Adam of Usk used the Wigmore manuscript as his source for the
genealogies of Gwladus and the Mortimers, thus establishing that the
Wigmore manuscript and Adam of Usk are not independent sources. As a
whole, the article is a useful guide for anyone who wants to examine
the manuscript itself (giving information about scribes, foliation,
etc.), but it does not actually quote the parts of the manuscript that
would be of interest to us.
The obvious problem is that the later sources collide directly with
each other, with one group claiming that Gwladus was a daughter of
Joan, and another group claiming that she was a daughter of Tangwystl.
So far as we know, neither of these groups of evidence are close
enough to being contemporary that we can assume that their data come
from first-hand information.
Based on known evidence, the sources giving Joan have the advantage
that the sources giving them are earlier. However, they also have the
serious disadvantage that they have an obvious political motive, i.e.,
the glorification of the Mortimers as claimants to the English throne.
Even if the link between Gwladus was not deliberately concocted by
those wanting to give Gwladus a more illustrious descent, there is
still the problem that it could have come about as a result of an
extremely common error in genealogy, i.e., falsely assuming that the
wife of the father is the mother.
Although coming from later sources (given the ones we know about, or
are not yet checked from citations given by Bartrum), the native Welsh
sources giving Tangwystl as the mother have the advantage that there
is no obvious motive for falsification, and assigining Gwladus as the
daughter of a specific mistress is much less likley to be the result
of a misunderstanding or error.
Unfortunately, there is no contemporary evidence which identifies the
mother of Gwladus. However, the chronological evidence previously
mentioned by Paul Reed on 28 November in a message titled "Gwladys
Ddu, m. 1215" (and in followups in that thread) shows quite clearly
how difficult it is to argue that Gwladus was the daughter of Joan.
Even if all of the chronological evidence is interpreted in a way that
is favorable to Joan being the mother, we still get a chronology which
is pushed to the limit and only barely possible, whereas the
possibility that Gwladus was the daughter of Tangwystl has no known
chronological difficulties. Thus, even though the matter can not yet
be regarded as resolved, I see the evidence as tilting significantly
in favor of Tangwystl as the mother of Gwladus.
|Gwladus, Joan, Tangwystl by (Stewart Baldwin)|