GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-01 > 1011124028
From: "Chris Phillips" <>
Subject: Re: A New Bohun Daughter Discovered
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 19:47:08 -0000
Today I had a chance to look into one or two records bearing on Margery,
wife of Theobald de Verdun, and daughter of Humphrey Bohun. I haven't found
anything very dramatic, but possibly the following are useful pieces of
(1) The most promising record is the one cited by Hagger - William Salt
Archaeological Society, original series, vol.6, part 1 (1885), in a
collection of Plea Rolls of the Reign of Edward I, gives the following:
"Banco Roll, Easter 8 Edward I
Essex. Henry de Bohun sued Theobald de Verdon and Margaret his wife for the
manor of Castell Waledene, excepting £10 of rent, and the advowson of the
Church; and he sued Joan de Bohun for £10 of rent in the same, in which they
had no entry except through Humphrey de Bohun formerly Earl of Hereford, who
had unjustly disseised him of them (A long and interesting suit, by which
Henry at length recovered seisin.) m.44, dorso."
(I take it Margaret is an error for Margery here.)
I don't know who this Henry de Bohun was, but the recent history of the
manor of [Saffron] Walden was as follows:
The manors of Sudham and Withurst and 100s of land in Haresfeud,
Gloucestershire, the manor of Kanelauton [Kimbolton], Huntingdonshire, and
the manors of Waleden and Depeden, Essex, had been settled by fine
onHumphrey de Bohun, Earl of Hereford [d.1275; I'll call him Humphrey
senior] on his son Humphrey [junior, d.1265] to hold, after his death, by
him and his heirs by Joan, daughter of Robert de Quency his [second] wife.
These lands were confiscated by the crown for Humphrey junior's part in
Simon de Montfort's cause, and about a fortnight after the death of Humphrey
junior they were granted back to Humphrey senior and his heirs.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls 1258-1266, p.504; this grant is noted by Complete
Peerage, vol.6, p.463]
But Joan objected, on the basis that she had been "dowered at the church
door" with the manor of Kenebauton [Kimbolton] at her marriage to Humphrey
junior, with Humphrey senior's assent, so that she should have had the right
to hold that manor for her life as Humphrey's widow. In November 1269, a
deal was struck whereby Joan granted Kimbolton to Humphrey senior for his
life, with the manor to revert to her after her death. In return she was to
receive £40 a year from the manor of Walton, with any shortfall to be made
up from Humphrey's manor of [Saffron] Walden.
[Calendar of Patent Rolls 1266-1272, p.472]
It seems from this that Walden must have been granted to Theobald de Verdon
and Margery by Humphrey senior in late 1269 or later, and that the £10 of
rent said in 1280 to be held by Joan de Bohun was the amount needed to make
up the £40 promised in her agreement with Humphrey. (In fact it's not quite
clear why she should have continued to receive this rent after the death of
Humphrey senior in 1275, as the inquisition taken after her death in 1283
shows that the manor of Kimbolton had been returned to her.)
It seems reasonable to assume that this grant was made at the time of
Theobald's marriage to Margery (which we already know had taken place by
1274), and also to assume it coincided with the grant to them of the other
land mentioned in the Year Book report.
At any rate the "long and interesting suit" does hold out the prospect of
evidence that would clarify things completely, though unless it has been
abstracted more fully elsewhere, it will be a case of going to the original
(2) On the question of Eleanor, the second wife of Theobald's father John de
Verdun, which the Complete Peerage thinks "may have been" a Verdun, mainly
on the evidence of a seal "said to be hers".
I looked at the details of the seal puiblished in the Staffordshire
Historical Collections, which are essentially copied from the Catalogue of
Seals in the British Museum. The name "Alianora de Verdon" and the date 1275
are given, and there is a "rhyming verse in Norman French":
"BOVN . ME . DO ---N ---A .
DE . VOS . ESKVZ . A --VS . E--A"
Unfortunately, it appears the seal is a cast rather than an original
attached to a document (the reference number xc.91 is given). So we're no
further on with the provenance, though presumably there's some way of
finding out (unfortunately vol.1 of the Catalogue - which might have
helped - wasn't on the shelf).
One other point on Eleanor. Hagger, as relayed by Cris Nash, tells us that
Eleanor's (presumed) son Humphrey de Verdun "went on to give lands in Debden
to Humphrey de Bohun in exchange for Nuthampstead before his death in 1285".
If Debden can be identified with "Depeden" among the lands granted back to
Humphrey de Bohun senior in 1265, it's tempting to think that manor was
later settled by him on Eleanor at her marriage to John de Verdun. (Complete
Peerage dates the marriage as "before 1267" on the basis of Humphrey de
Verdun's birth in that year. However, Hagger dates the marriage "by 1258" -
I'm not sure on what evidence - which would complicate matters.)
Incidentally, another of the manors restored to Humphrey de Bohun senior in
1265, "Haresfeud", seems to have passed to a younger son of his, John de
Bohun, whom CP describes in a footnote as "of Haresfield".
(3) I did manage to find a copy of Hagger's book at the London Library. The
references given for the will of Theobald de Verdun, said to be dated 1295,
are British Library Additional MS 18446, p.7 and National Library of
Ireland, MS 8513, p.97.
I think that's about all for now.