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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-01 > 1011977821


From: "p.sutton" <>
Subject: RE: Solution to the identity of Iseult. wife of Hugh de Audley
Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2002 16:57:01 -0000
In-Reply-To: <5cf47a19.0201250132.9def24b@posting.google.com>


Douglas

I have been following your posts with great interest.

I have recently been reading "The parentage of Sir James de Audley KG" by
Josiah Wedgewood, MP (HCS Volume IX (NS) pp. 245-268) he relates the
Froissart chronicle (Fr. Ch. Pt II Cap. 50) as you have mentioned. He then
goes on to show a pedigree which provides a relationship between Sir James
KG and Sir Bartholomew Burghersh. He achieves this by a dotted line from
Edmund de Mortimer to Isolda i.e.. showing them as possibly being brother
and sister. He calls her "probably a daughter of Roger Mortimer of
Wigmore". Later on in the article he says that Isolda was probably sister
to Edmund de Mortimer and refers to a footnote which reads "Pat. Rolls 1336
p. 307".

However, irrespective of any relationship with the 5th Earl of Derby through
the Mortimer family Sir James de Audley KG is related to William de Ferrers,
5th Earl of Derby via the Audley family to a common ancestor, Sir Hugh de
Cyveilog, 5th Earl of Chester. Sir James's descent being:

Sir Hugh de Cyveilog, 5th Earl of Chester & unknown mother
/ Amice of Chester
/ Bertrade de Mainwaring
/ Sir James de Audley
/ Hugh de Audley
/ Sir James de Audley
/ Sir James de Audley KG.

William de Ferrers descent being:

Sir Hugh de Cyveilog, 5th Earl of Chester & Bertrade de Montfort
/ Agnes = William de Ferrers 4th Earl of Derby
/ William de Ferrers 5th Earl.

I believe that this provides, at least one possibility for a common link
between John de Willoughby, Ralph de Ferrers, and Sir James KG.

Is it not possible that the answer lies with a brother sister relationship
between Edmund and Isolda? However, I don't know how it can be proved.

Regards

Peter Sutton


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [mailto:]On Behalf Of
> Douglas Richardson
> Sent: 25 January 2002 09:33
> To:
> Subject: Solution to the identity of Iseult. wife of Hugh de Audley
>
>
> Dear Newsgroup ~
>
> Last week I expressed my doubts that Iseult, wife of Hugh de Audley,
> of Stratton (in Stratton Audley), co. Oxford, was the daughter of
> Edmund de Mortimer, Baron of Wigmore, co. Hereford. I made that
> assessment based on a careful review of the evidence, which, in my
> opinion, simply did not support such a filiation.
>
> Upon further review of the evidence offline with Chris Phillips, we
> established that the sole source for Iseult's parentage appears to be
> one of the unpublished "Additional Manuscripts" kept by the British
> Library. Chris has since examined the manuscript in question and
> determined that either the manuscript or folio number cited by modern
> sources is in error. As such, it doesn't seem possible any time soon
> for us to learn the nature of the information supposedly recorded in
> the Additional Manuscripts material. Regardless, while that avenue
> has reached a dead end, it appears another door has opened which
> appears to provide the correct solution to the problem.
>
> Tonight while I was going through the biography of Sir James de Audley
> in George Frederick Beltz' interesting book, Memorials of the Most
> Noble Order of the Garter (1841), I discovered a statement pertaining
> to Sir James de Audley's family, which almost certainly relates to
> relatives of his grandmother, Iseult de Audley. Beltz states that Sir
> James de Audley was severely wounded in the Battle of Poitiers in
> 1356. According to Beltz, Froissart (a contemporary historian)
> relates that "upon his return to his lodging, our knight [Sir James de
> Audley] sent for his brother sir Peter de Audeley, sir Bartholomew
> Burghershe, sir Stephen Cosington, the lord Willoughby, and sir Ralph
> de Ferrers, who, he says, were of his blood and lineage."
>
> This list of Audley kinsmen is similar to the list of people Nat
> Taylor posted last week in the Bohun-Basset consanguinity case, in
> that the people named were probably distantly related to one another,
> making it somewhat difficult to pinpoint the exact link tying the
> people together. Not surprisingly, in a footnote, Beltz adds: "...
> Sir James' relationship to the four last-named knights does not
> appear," showing that Beltz was stymied in his attempt to determine
> the common link between the five individuals.
>
> Reviewing the list of the men called kinsmen by Sir James de Audley, a
> good deal is known of the ancestry of three of these individuals,
> namely Sir Bartholomew Burghersh, 4th Lord Burghersh; John de
> Willoughby, 2nd Lord Willoughby of Eresby; and Sir Ralph de Ferrers.
> Reviewing the ancestry of Sir Bartholomew Burghersh, for example, it
> is apparent at once that he was great-grandson of Edmund de Mortimer,
> lst Lord Mortimer, who is the alleged father of Sir James de Audley's
> grandmother, Iseult. This would surely be strong confirmation that
> Iseult de Audley definitely had a Mortimer connection.
>
> Reviewing the ancestry of the other two individuals, John de
> Willoughby and Ralph de Ferrers, however, it shows they possess no
> such link to the Mortimer family. Rather, they both descend from
> William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby (died 1254). Ralph de Ferrers
> was grandson of the 5th Earl, while John de Willoughby was
> great-grandson of the 5th Earl.
>
> Given the common link between John de Willoughby and Ralph de Ferrers,
> it is difficult to explain their intended tie to Sir James de Audley,
> if in fact Sir James' grandmother, Iseult, was the daughter of Edmund
> de Mortimer, lst Lord Mortimer, as alleged in print. Iseult as
> Edmund's daughter would seemingly have no connection to William de
> Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby. However, checking the accounts of the
> various families, a neat solution has appeared on the horizon. My
> Mortimer family notes show that Edmund de Mortimer had an uncle, Hugh
> de Mortimer (died 1273) of Chelmarsh, who married Agatha de Ferrers
> (died 1306), daughter of William de Ferrers, 5th Earl of Derby. If
> Iseult de Audley was the child of Hugh and Agatha, it would give her
> grandson, Sir James de Audley, the needed links to both the Mortimer
> and Ferrers families. Also, it would solve the obvious chronology
> problem of Iseult being Edmund de Mortimer's daughter.
>
> When anyone has a moment, I'd appreciate comments on this placement of
> Iseult as a member of the Mortimer family. By placing Iseult as Hugh
> de Mortimer's daughter, she becomes granddaughter rather than
> great-granddaughter of the ever popular lady on the newsgroup, Gladys
> Dhu. For convenience sake, I've posted below the lengthy list of
> colonial immigrants who descend from Iseult, wife of Hugh de Audley.
>
> In closing, I wish to express my thanks to Chris Phillips for his
> continued efforts in helping to solve these difficult and longstanding
> medieval problems. Friendship and collegiality are the two of the
> keys to solving the many genealogical mysteries which have long eluded
> us.
>
> Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> E-mail:
>
> - - - - - - - -
>
> List of colonial imigrants who descend from Iseult de Mortimer, wife
> of Hugh de Audley:
>
> 1. Robert Abell.
>
> 2. Dannett Abney.
>
> 3. William Asfordby.
>
> 4. Richard & William Bernard.
>
> 5. Essex Beville.
>
> 6. William Bladen.
>
> 7. George & Nehemiah Blakiston.
>
> 8. Joseph Bolles.
>
> 9. Elizabeth Bosvile.
>
> 10. George, Giles & Robert Brent.
>
> 11. Stephen Bull.
>
> 12. Charles Calvert.
>
> 13. Edward Carleton.
>
> 14. Grace Chetwode.
>
> 15. St. Leger Codd.
>
> 16. Francis Dade.
>
> 17. Humphrey Davie.
>
> 18. Frances, Jane & Katherine Deighton.
>
> 19. Edward Digges.
>
> 20. Thomas Dudley.
>
> 21. William Farrar.
>
> 22. John Fenwick.
>
> 23. Henry Fleete.
>
> 24. Edward Foliot.
>
> 25. Muriel Gurdon.
>
> 26. Elizabeth & John Harleston.
>
> 27. Jane Haviland.
>
> 28. Warham Horsmanden.
>
> 29. Anne Humphrey.
>
> 30. Edward, Edmund, Richard & Matthew Kempe.
>
> 31. Mary Launce.
>
> 32. Samuel Levis.
>
> 33.Thomas Ligon.
>
> 34. Nathaniel Littleton.
>
> 35. Thomas Lloyd.
>
> 36. Thomas Lunsford.
>
> 37. Agnes Mackworth.
>
> 38. Anne & Katherine Marbury.
>
> 39. Elizabeth Marshall.
>
> 40. Anne Mauleverer.
>
> 41. Joseph Need.
>
> 42. John Nelson.
>
> 43. Philip & Thomas Nelson.
>
> 44. John Oxenbridge.
>
> 45. Herbert Pelham.
>
> 46. Robert Peyton.
>
> 47. William Poole.
>
> 48. George Reade.
>
> 49. Henry & William Randolph.
>
> 50. William Rodney.
>
> 51. Katherine Saint Leger.
>
> 52. Richard Saltonstall.
>
> 53. Anthony Savage.
>
> 54. William Skepper.
>
> 55. Maria Johanna Somerset.
>
> 56. John Stockman.
>
> 57. John & Lawrence Washington.
>
> 58. Olive Welby.
>
> 59. John West.
>
> 60. Francis Willoughby.
>
> 61. Thomas Wingfield.
>
> 62. Mary Wolseley.
>
> 63. Hawte Wyatt.
>
> 64. Amy Wyllys.
>
>


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