Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-01 > 1012169319

From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: Solution to the identity of Iseult. wife of Hugh de Audley
Date: 27 Jan 2002 14:08:39 -0800
References: <000d01c1a6c2$78e93460$973786d9@oemcomputer>

Dear Chris, John, etc. ~

I've checked the chronology of the Deincourt and Mohun families. If
Edmund Deincourt's wife Isabel was the daughter of Reynold de Mohun,
then she almost certainly would be by his second marriage to Isabel de
Ferrers. If doesn't seem possible for Edmund's wife to have been a
daughter of Reynold de Mohun's lst wife, Hawise Fitz Geoffrey.

However, as you note, Complete Peerage sub Derby, vol. 4, pg. 199,
states that the issue of Isabel de Ferrers, wife of Reynold de Mohun,
failed in 1324. This statement stands in conflict with the account of
the Deincourt family in the same volume, which shows that the
descendants of Isabel de Ferrers' daughter, Isabel (de Mohun)
Deincourt, continued beyond 1324. I checked Complete Peerage, vol.
14, for a possible correction to this matter but found nothing under
either Deincourt or Derby.

VCH Bedford, 2 (1908): 351 sub Luton shows that Isabel de Ferrers'
share of Luton, co. Bedford fell to her her son, William's daughter,
Mary de Mohun, wife of John de Meriet. On John de Meriet's death in
1327, the Mohun share of Luton was redistributed to the heirs of
Isabel de Ferrers' sisters, suggesting that her issue had indeed
failed by that date. VCH Bedford cites as its source, Cal. IPM, 1
Edward III, No. 51, which I haven't examined.

If correct, then it is clear that Edmund Deincourt's wife was not
Isabel de Ferrers' daughter, or if he did marry Isabel's daughter, her
issue likewise failed in or before 1327. This would mean that Edmund
Deincourt either never married Isabel de Ferrers' daughter, or that he
had his surviving children by a different wife of whom we have no

There is another avenue, however, which needs to be examined before we
conclude that Isabel de Ferrers' issue failed before 1327. Sir H.C.
Maxwell Lyte's book, History of Dunster, 1 (1909): 32-33 shows that
Isabel de Ferrers had ten hides of land at Mildenhall, co. Wilts on
her marriage to Reynold de Mohun. He also states that Isabel's son,
Sir William de Mohun, inherited the manors of Mildenhall, in
Wiltshire, and Greywell, in Hampshire "through his mother."

If these statements are correct, then tracing the history of
Mildenhall and Greywell might well be instructive. If the Deincourt
family was later in possession of these estates, then it would appear
that they were probably blood descendants of Isabel (de Ferrers) de

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah


(Chris Phillips) wrote in message news:<000d01c1a6c2$78e93460$>...
> I wrote:
> > The Aylesford connection is interesting, because that was among the
> > possessions of the Greys of Codnor. These Greys were cousins of John de
> > Willoughby, being like him descendants of Sir Reynold de Mohun.
> Actually, there's something rather puzzling about John de Willoughby's
> descent from Sir Reynold de Mohun. John's paternal grandmother's parents
> were Edmund Deincourt and Isabel. Complete Peerage, vol.4, p.120, identifies
> Isabel as the daughter of Sir Reynold de Mohun by his second wife, Isabel,
> daughter of William (de Ferrers), Earl of Derby, citing "Extracts, by St
> George, from the Mohun Cartulary, f.37v".
> On the other hand, the table of the representatives of Sibyl, first wife of
> William de Ferrers, on p.199, indicates that Isabel's issue failed in 1324.
> This was the date of the death without issue of Nicholas de Carru, a great
> grandson of Sir Reynold and Isabel.
> If the latter statement is correct, then Isabel the wife of Edmund Deincourt
> must have been a daughter of Sir Reynold de Mohun by his first wife (like
> Lucy, the wife of Sir John de Grey of Codnor), and John de Willoughby's
> descent from William de Ferrers is lost.
> I haven't checked vol.14 for a correction to either statement.
> Chris Phillips

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