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From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: FitzAlan/de Saluzzo
Date: 16 Feb 2002 00:09:40 -0800
References: <200202152147.g1FLlsa26139@lists2.rootsweb.com>, <001801c1b67b$d34dabc0$069a6641@2sabd>


Dear Pat ~

Thank you for your good post. In answer to your first question, my
research indicates that Richard Fitz Alan (or de Arundel), 8th Earl of
Arundel, was married about November 1281/2 to his wife, Alice di
Saluzzo. The marriage was evidently arranged by Alice's cousin, Queen
Eleanor of Provence, who had correspondence with her son, King Edward
I, about the marriage in that month and year [Reference: List of
Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer (PRO, London,
Lists and Indexes, No. 15) (repr. 1968): 485]. This date for the
marriage corrects the one found in Complete Peerage sub Arundel.
Richard was 14-15 years old at the time of the marriage.

Richard Fitz Alan's wife, Alice, is almost universally called Alesia
in English sources. However, after studying the matter in depth, it
appears that Alesia is simply the Latin form for the given name,
Alice. Presumably the form Alesia was adopted by historians for
Richard's wife's name, for no better reason than Alesia sounds more
Italian than Alice. I checked an Italian source for information on
Alice's family, it being Compendio istorico dell'origine de marchese
in Italia e di Saluzzo con loro genealogia (1709), pp. 93-96. This
source calls her Alice (not Alesia) and gives the following
information regarding her:

"Alice maritata in Tomaso Conte d'Arondello d'Inghilterre."

I presume Tomaso is a place in Italy, but I haven't checked a
gazateer.

As for the children of Richard Fitz Alan and Alice di Saluzzo, I show
they had at least three sons, Edmund, Knt., Richard, Knt., and John, a
clerk, and three daughters, Eleanor (wife of Henry de Percy), Alice
(wife of Stephen de Segrave), and Margaret (wife of William le
Boteler).

Curiously, Complete Peerage sub Percy takes a non-comital view
regarding the parentage of Eleanor, wife of Henry de Percy. However,
my research shows Eleanor de Percy was called "kinswoman" in 1318 and
again in 1322, by King Edward II, evidently on the basis of Eleanor's
descent via her mother, Alice di Saluzzo, from Amadeo IV, Count of
Savoy, brother of Edward II's great-grandmother, Beatrice of Savoy
(see Cal. Fine Rolls, 1307-1319 (1912), pg. 378; Cal. Fine Rolls,
1319-1327 (1912), pg. 134)]. Likewise, it appears that the financial
arrangements for Eleanor and Henry's marriage are reflected in the
recognizances recorded in 1300, by Eleanor's father, Richard, Earl of
Arundel, for a debt of 2,000 marks he owed Henry de Percy (see Cal.
Close Rolls, 1296-1302 (1906), pg. 404). As for evidence that Richard
Fitz Alan had a daughter, Alice, who married Stephen de Segrave,
please see my recent post here on the newsgroup regarding that matter.
The evidence for the daughter, Margaret, is slim, it consisting of a
Boteler family pedigree recorded by the well known (but usually
accurate) herald, Robert Glover.

As for the change in names from Fitz Alan to Arundel, my research
indicates that the name Arundel first appears in relation to this
family in the 1270's, initially in conjunction with Fitz Alan.
Sometime in the 1290's, Arundel began to be used in its own right, and
after 1302, it completely replaced Fitz Alan as this family's surname.
It is not understood why the family changed their surname. The name
change seems to have been overlooked by nearly all historians,
including Complete Peerage.

Below I have posted a copy of the account of Richard Fitz Alan (or
Arundel) which will appear in the forthcoming book, Plantagenet
Ancestry, 3rd edition. If anyone has anything to add to this account,
I would appreciate hearing from them.

Best always,

Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail:


- - - - - - - - - - - -

1. RICHARD FITZ ALAN (or DE ARUNDEL), Knt., 8th Earl of Arundel, of
the Castle and honor of Arundel, Sussex, Baron of Clun and Oswestry,
co. Salop, son and heir, born 3 Feb. 1266/7. He married about
November 1281/2 (date of correspondence regarding this marriage) ALICE
(or ALESIA) DI SALUZZO, daughter of Tomaso I, Marquis of Saluzzo in
Piedmont (descendant of William the Conqueror, King of England), by
Luisa, daughter of Giorgio, Marquis of Ceva. She was near kinswoman
to Eleanor of Provence, wife of Henry III, King of England, who helped
arrange this marriage. Richard and Alice had three sons, Edmund, Knt.
[2nd Earl of Arundel], Richard, Knt., and John (clerk) (warden of
Tickhill Chapel, Yorkshire), and three daughters, Eleanor, Alice (or
Alesia), and Margaret. He was created Earl of Arundel in 1289. He
was summoned to Parliament 24 June 1295 by writ directed Ricardo filio
Alani Comiti Arundell'. He fought in the Welsh wars in 1288, in
Gascony in 1295-1297, and in the Scottish wars, 1299 and 1300-1301.
Alice died 25 Sep. 1292. He signed the Barons' letter to the Pope in
1301. SIR RICHARD FITZ ALAN, 8th Earl of Arundel, died testate 9 Mar.
1301/2. He and his wife were buried at Haughmond Abbey, Shropshire.

[Note: Earl Richard, his father and grandfather all used the surname,
Fitz Alan. In the 1270's, Earl Richard's father was styled John Fitz
Alan de Arundel in several records (see Cal. Patent Rolls, 1272-1281
(1901), pp. 11, 96, 161, 331). In 1291, Earl Richard received a grant
addressed to him as "Richard de Arundel, Earl of Arundel" (see C.P.
(1910): 241). Similarly, in the period, 1291-1302, Earl Richard's
brother, John, was styled John de Arundel (see Una Rees, Cartulary of
Haughmond Abbey (1985), pg. 227). Although the surname, Fitz Alan,
was used by Earl Richard until his death in 1302, thereafter all
further references to this family in the records employ the surname,
Arundel, to the exclusion of the surname, Fitz Alan. VCH Surrey 1
(1902):348, footnote 348 observes that Richard's son and heir, Edmund,
is "commonly called Fitz Alan but the real designation of the family
was then de Arundel." Nicholas H. Nicolas, a well known antiquarian,
also states: "This family presents a singular instance of adopting the
name of their title as the surname of the family, for after the
marriage of John Fitz-Alan, Lord of Clun, with Isabel, the sister and
co-heir of Hugh D'Albini, Earl of Arundel, all the descendants called
themslves Arundel instead of Fitz-Alan" (Testamenta Vetusta, 1 (1926):
105). While no indication has been found that Richard's son, Edmund
(died 1326) used any surname at all, both of his brothers, two of his
sons, and all four of his grandsons, employed the Arundel surname.
Edmund's sister, Alice, is likewise styled "de Arundel"; in an ancient
Segrave family pedigree. For an example of Edmund's brother, John,
using the Arundel name, see Cal. Inq. Misc. 2 (1916): 334. For
instances of Edmund's son, Edmund, using the Arundel surname, see W.H.
Bliss, Cal. Papal Registers: Petitions to the Pope, 1342-1419 1
(1896): 8,128,186,194].

References:

Compendio istorico dell'origine de marchese in Italia e di Saluzzo con
loro genealogia (1709), pp. 93-96 ("Alice maritata in Tomaso Conte
d'Arondello d'Inghilterre"). George Baker, Hist. & Antiq. of the
County of Northampton 1 (1822-1830): 547. Rev. M.A. Tierney, Hist. &
Antiq. of the Castle and Town of Arundel 1 (1834): Fitzalan chart. R.
W. Eyton, Antiquities of Shropshire 11 (1860): 235 (Richard, Earl of
Arundel, names his cousins, John de Leyburn, Knt., and Robert Corbet,
Knt.). G. B. di Crollalanza, Dizionario storico-blasnonico delle
famiglie nobili e notabili italiane 2 (1886-1890): 472-473 (arms of
Saluzzo: D'argento, col capo d'azzurro). C.P. 1 (1910): 240-241 (sub
Arundel), 253; 4: 670). C.P. 2 (1912): 232 (sub Boteler). C.P. 7
(1929): 680-681 (sub Lincoln). Sanders, English Baronies (1960), pg.
71. List of Ancient Correspondence of the Chancery and Exchequer
(PRO, London, Lists and Indexes, No. 15) (repr. 1968): 485. Una Rees,
Cartulary of Haughmond Abbey (1985), pg. 227 (agreement re. tombs of
Earl Richard and his wife, Alesia). Gerard J. Brault, Rolls of Arms
Edward I (1272-1307) 2 (1997):17, 166 (his arms: Gules, a lion rampant
or).



(PCJorgensen) wrote in message news:<001801c1b67b$d34dabc0$>...
> Good Evening!
>
> After searching the Gen-Med archives for information on a family line, I
> have several questions:
>
> I have Richard FitzAlan and Alisona de Saluzzo married about 1284, when she
> was 13 or 14 and he was 18?
>
> I have four children listed for them: Edmund (born 1285), Eleanor (born
> about 1286), Margaret and Alice (Alesia).
> One source says that Margaret was born in 1302, which was 10 years after
> Alisona died in 1292 and the same year
> her father died. Was Alisona Margaret's mother or was Margaret from another
> marriage/relationship? Hmmm..sounds
> like a medieval soap opera..
>
> Thank you,
> Pat Jorgensen

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