Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-03 > 1015051714

From: (Stewart Baldwin)
Subject: Re: Judith (of Flanders?) m. (1) Tostig (2) Welf (part 2 of 2)
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:48:34 GMT
References: <>

On 1 Mar 2002 20:13:06 -0700, wrote:

>This is a message I just got from Dr. Laura Gathagan, an expert who has
>written extensively on Mathilda. She shares her findings about the Judith
>problem. Her research agrees with the lines I have been touting.
><<On the Judith question, though Orderic is confused on
>this point, William of Poitiers, I believe, makes it
>clear that Judith is Baldwin's half-sister. ...

This is the first that I have seen William of Poiters mentioned as a
source for this. Obviously, it needs to be checked.

>... The
>Genealogiae Comitum Flandriae found in the MGH also
>claims that Judith is not Baldwin's daughter.

Not true. "Genealogiae Comitum Flandriae" does not mention Judith at
all, which is not the same a claiming that Judith was not Baldwin's
daughter. By the way, "Genealogiae Comitum Flandriae" is a generic
term for several related works in MGH Scriptores volume 9, several of
which I cited in my original posting on Judith as stating that Matilda
was a daughter of Baldwin V without mentioning Judith.

>Theodoric II, count of West Frisia, married Hildegard,
>the daughter of Arnulf the Great. They had two sons,
>Arnulf II, the next count of West Frisia, and Egbert
>who became bishop of Trier.

Hildegard is not mentioned in any known primary source as a daughter
of Arnulf, although the conjecture that she was Arnulf's daughter
seems probable enough. Hildegard's son Arnulf was the first known
member of the dynasty of the counts of Holland to bear the name
Arnulf, so the "II" on his name is not appropriate.

>... Arnulf II's son, Baldwin
>IV, married Ogiva of Luxembourg, and had one son,
>Baldwin V.

Technically true, but very misleading, as the Arnulf II who was father
of Baldwin IV was not the Arnulf "II" mentioned in the previous
sentence, but count Arnulf II of Flanders (son of Baldwin III, son of
Arnulf I).

>... Shortly thereafter, Ogiva died, and Baldwin
>IV remarried a daughter of Richard of Normandy. The
>only child of that marriage was Judith. In fact, the
>connection, (though not one of blood) between Baldwin
>IV and the dukes of Normandy may have been one of the
>factors in the papacy's disapproval of Mathilda's
>marriage to William.

It is too bad that the reason for this disapproval is not adequately
explained in the sources.

Stewart Baldwin

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