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From: "leo van de pas" <>
Subject: Re: Complete Peerage Correction: Elizabeth Stafford, wife of John Tuchet, Knt.
Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2002 18:28:11 +1000
References: <000701c1d9ed$048583e0$4f47fea9@ccqn801> <5cf47a19.0204020249.3c4ef00c@posting.google.com>


----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Richardson" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, April 02, 2002 8:49 PM
Subject: Complete Peerage Correction: Elizabeth Stafford, wife of John
Tuchet, Knt.


> Dear Allen ~
>
> Thank you for your good post.
>
> In answer to your question, the wife of John Tuchet, Knt., 4th Lord
> Audley, was Elizabeth Stafford, a hitherto unidentified daughter of
> Humphrey Stafford, Knt., of Amblecote, Bramshall, and Perton, co.
> Stafford, by his lst wife, Alice, daughter and heiress of John
> Grenville, Knt. Elizabeth Stafford has Carolingian ancestry through
> her paternal grandmother, Margaret (Stafford) Stafford, who was a
> daughter of Ralph Stafford, lst Earl of Stafford, by his lst wife,
> Katherine Hastang.
>

I hesitate to suggest the possibility that Douglas Richardson just might
have made a mistake by his last observation. He gives Elizabeth Stafford as
parents Sir Humphrey Stafford and Alice Grenville. For Sir Humphrey he only
gives the name of his mother, Margaret Stafford. So far so good. He gives
Margaret as parents Ralph Stafford, 1st Earl of Stafford, by his first wife,
Katherine Hastang.

My observation is that it might be the second wife who was the mother of
Margaret. By the way, Margaret was married to Sir John Stafford, of
Bramshall.

The Complete Peerage XII/1 gives Ralph married 1stly probably about 1326-7
Katharine, daughter of Sir John Hastang by Eve his wife; 2ndly before 6 July
1336 Margaret daughter and heir of Hugh (de Audley), Earl of Gloucester.

CP, of course, only gives sons, Ralph and Hugh, both by the second marriage.

Burke's Extinct Peerage, 1866, page 499 doesn't even mention Katharine
Hastang, and gives as children by Margaret de Audley
1.Ralph
2.Hugh
3.Beatrice married thrice
4.Joane
5.Elizabeth
6.Margaret married to Sir John Stafford

Now an obscure source, Count d'Angerville's "Living Descendants of Blood
Royal" (in America) Volume three,
page 60
1.Edward I
2.Joan
3.Margaret de Clare
4.Margaret Audley, died 1349, married Sir Ralph Stafford, Earl of Stafford
5.Margaret Stafford, married as his second wife Sir John Stafford, knt, of
Bramshall, Stafford

Another one
Jophe Foster, "Our Noble and Gentle Families of Royal Descent" published in
1884, page 22, also makes Margaret Stafford a daughter of Ralph, 1st Earl of
Stafford, by his second wife.

Now David Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry, 1st edition, page
6, this brings a problem.
Ralph de Stafford, 1st Earl, had married previously Katherine de Hastang by
whom he had one (unnamed daughter) and by Margaret de Audley he had as
daughters
Elizabeth, Beatrice, Joan and Katherine. Only son Hugh is mentioned, not
Ralph. Was this unnamed daughter Margaret?

Let's go to Weiss "Ancestral Roots" seventh edition, page 35.
Line 32, generation 32
Sir Robert de Swynnerton, knt, died 1395, married Elizabeth Beke, daughter
of Sir Nicholas Beke and Jane (Joan) de Stafford, daughter of Sir Ralph de
Stafford and Katharine de Hastang. Well, this supplies the unnamed
daughter, where does that leave Margaret? In the same book, page 60, line
55, generation 33.
Here is Margaret given as 4th daughter by the 1st wife, Katharine de
Hastang.

Full circle. Are the daughters mentioned by Faris to be distributed amongst
the two wives? Or how many more daughters did Ralph, 1st Earl of Stafford,
have? And by which wife? Faris tells that Katherine de Hastang only had one
daughter and Weiss tells us at least four.

Best wishes
Leo van de Pas



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