GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-04 > 1018818017
From: "Chris Phillips" <>
Subject: Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas de Criol
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:00:17 +0100
MichaelAnne Guido wrote:
> What is the correct ancestry of Margery, wife of Nicholas de Criol of
> Croxton Criol, Co. Leicester and Eynsford co. Kent? They were married
> ca. 1271/2 and there are conflicting sources on this woman.
> George Baker, The History and Antiquities of the County of
> Northampton, Vol. I, John Bowyer Nichols & Son, London, 1822-1830,
> page 714:
> Elizabeth, daughter and coheir of Nicholas de Crioll of Thenford, co.
> Northampton by Margery Clifford 7 Edward II (1313). Esc. 20 Edward
> III, page 2, no. 4. She married Sir John Pabenham of Pabenham, co.
> Bedford and jure uxoris of Thenford, co. Northampton.
> page 713:
> In 7 Edward II (1313) Richard Clifford, son and heir of John Clifford,
> released to Margery de Crioll widow of Sir Nicholas de Crioll,
> Elizabeth wife of Sir John de Pabenham, and Margery daughter and
> heiress of Sir Robert de Hereward, all right in lands of their
> inheritance in Inchester, Fardish, Willy, Puddington, Higham,
> Lillingston and Thenford i
[in the counties of Northampton, Bedford, Buckingham and Oxford [Placit.
Michaelmas. Westmoreland 7 Edward II].
> CP v. III p. 542 indicates that Margery was a da. of Gilbert Peche, of
> Westcliff, co. Kent. Patent Roll 56 Henry III, m. 22 & Close Roll,
> 32 Edward I, m. 16.
I missed this when it was originally posted a couple of days ago, but
MichaelAnne Guido sent me the details today off-list, pointing out that the
Complete Peerage identifies this Margery Peche as the widow Margery who
survived Nicholas Criol, and also mentioning that Hugh Clifford's "The House
of Clifford" explains the quitclaim by Richard Clifford in 1313 by asserting
that Richard's father John had married Margaret [or Margery] Hereward and
had by her, as well as Richard, two daughters, Isabella, who married Robert
FitzPain, and Margery, who married Nicholas de Carrol.
Some time ago I made some notes on Elizabeth, the wife of John de Pabenham,
mainly from the Victoria County History's account of Lillingstone Lovell
[VCH Buckinghamshire vol.3, p.41] and also from VCH Bedfordshire, vol.3,
pp.41,50,57. The notes need to be supplemented by more from original
sources, but I think they clarify the identity of this Margery, widow of
The VCH account says that Margery Criol (Keriel), Elizabeth wife of John
Pabenham, and Margery the daughter and heir of Robert and Margaret Hereward,
appear to have been the heirs of one Margery Clifford, who in 1254 held the
manor of Lillingston Lovell under Sir Hugh de Chaceporc, and married first
Peter de St Martin, and then by 1260 Peter Dansey [=Dauntsey?], the manor
being settled on them and their issue, with remainder to Margery's right
heirs in that year. The manor was held under the condition of giving a
"clove gillyflower" at Easter to Richard Clifford and his heirs (presumably
the Richard Clifford of 1313 was one of these heirs). Peter was still living
in 1266, and Margery in 1284.
Chronologically, Margery the widow of Nicholas Criol would fit as a daughter
of Margery Clifford by Peter Dansey (Nicholas being a minor in 1272).
Elizabeth the wife of John Pabenham would also fit more comfortably as a
sister of Margery than a daughter - if my notes are correct, John the son of
John Pabenham was married by 1295 (though looking at them it's not
absolutely clear he was Elizabeth's son). In this case, Margaret the wife of
Robert Hereward would probably be the third sister.
I suppose there is the possibility that Margery Clifford died without issue,
and that Margery, Elizabeth and Margaret were her right heirs rather than
her daughters. Even so, it's difficult to see how Margery could be a
daughter of Gilbert Pecche, who according to the Complete Peerage [vol.10,
p.336] had sons by both marriages. So it seems that Nicholas Criol must have
married twice, first to Margery Pecche, and second to Margery the coheir of
Two more points:
(1) According to the VCH account, Lillingstone Lovell had been held by a
William Clifford as early as 1131. Therefore it seems that Hugh Clifford, in
"The House of Clifford" is not only wrong in its detailed reconstruction,
but in attaching these Cliffords to the Frampton-of-Severn family, has
picked the wrong family altogether, because he says that the first of the
Frampton family to assume the name Clifford was Walter (1127-1187).
(2) The VCH account identifies Margery, the daughter of Robert Hereward and
Margaret, with the later wife of William Lovell. It says that Margery Criol
was holding a moiety of Lillingstone [Lovell] as late as 1361 [if so,
suggesting she may have been much younger than her husband], but apparently
the Criol portion was later merged with the others, perhaps implying that
Margery Criol left no heirs. (I should like to check this point further,
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