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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-04 > 1018824049


From: "Bagpuss & Co." <>
Subject: comment on point #1
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2002 22:40:49 GMT
References: <004701c1e3f8$2528a5e0$6e7486d9@oemcomputer>


"Chris Phillips" <> wrote in message
news:004701c1e3f8$2528a5e0$...
> Two more points:
>
> (1) According to the VCH account, Lillingstone Lovell had been held by a
> William Clifford as early as 1131. Therefore it seems that Hugh Clifford,
in
> "The House of Clifford" is not only wrong in its detailed reconstruction,
> but in attaching these Cliffords to the Frampton-of-Severn family, has
> picked the wrong family altogether, because he says that the first of the
> Frampton family to assume the name Clifford was Walter (1127-1187).
>

I appear to have Walter/William de Clifford of Clifford Castle,
Herefordshire as being born around 1113. He married Isabel de Tosny, and
amongst their children was a Richard de Clifford (b. Abt 1151) who married
Letitia de Berkeley. Their descendants became the Frampton side of the
family. Indeed Walter/William was the first to assume the Clifford name,
although he was not strictly a Frampton on Severn man himself, just his son.

As William married into the Tosny family (who several generations previous
were related to Earl William Fitz Osbern through marriage), could the
Clifford family of Hereford have come by the land of Lillingstone Lovell via
the Tosny family, through Isabel? i.e. Could the first William de Clifford
in Lillingstone actually be the same as the Walter/William in Clifford
Castle? I suppose he might have been a little young!!!

Just a thought/guess. I've nothing to back this up though :-)

(OT: The name Clifford came from the site of the castle in Herefordshire -
it was built at the top of a cliff directly above a ford across the River
Wye.)

Andrew



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