GEN-MEDIEVAL-L ArchivesArchiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-04 > 1018832849
From: (Stewart Baldwin)
Subject: Heribert of Kinziggau, part 2b
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 01:07:29 GMT
[Begin part 2b, continued from part 2a]
The main question is: Who were the parents of the siblings Konrad,
Heribert, Udo, Judith? This is apparently not directly documented,
and Jackman differs from what seemed to be the previous consensus.
Going back to the other part of the document involving Otto and
Irmingard (see Part 1), we see some apparently male-line relatives of
Otto of Hammerstein:
"Gebehard et Udo nepotes, fi1ii duorum fratrum. Gebehard genuit
Cunonem. Udo genuit Ottonem. Cuno genuit Cunonem. Heribertus genuit
In table format, this comes out as:
NN (male) NN (male)
Gebhard Udo ?
| | |
Cuno Otto Heribert
These are apparently the patrilineal relatives of Otto of Hammerstein
(and his father Heribert), but they don't say how Heribert fits in.
The names Gebhard, Udo, and Conrad (with short form Cuno) were all
common in the Konradiner family, and the Udo of the table has
generally been identified with the Konradiner count Udo, who died in
949 (and was son of a Gebhard who died in 910).
Since Otto of Hammerstein was evidently the central figure in these
documents, the fact that they did not identify his grandfather led
some to suggest that this was a mistake, and that the passage has an
error in it. The first Otto looks out of place (since he is not
provided with a son later in the account), and the lack of a father
for Heribert is also strange. The most common suggestion (supported,
for example, by Hlawitschka, Brandenburg, Werner) is that "Udo genuit
Ottonem" is a mistake for "Udo genuit Heribertum". If correct, this
emendation would lead to the table:
NN (male) NN (male)
The supporters of this scenario have pointed out some significant
pieces of supporting evidence for this interpretation:
1. Count Udo (d. 949) is known to have married a daughter of count
Heribert I of Vermandois [Flodoard's Annals s.a. 946, MGH SS 3, 393,
which states that Udo was married to a paternal aunt ("amita") of
Hugh, archbishop of Rheims, who was a son of Heribert II, son of
Heribert I of Vermandois]. This would give an easy explanation for
the origin of the name Heribert in the Konradiner family.
2. The onomastics of the male members of the family also fits well.
The elder Udo and Heribert both had sons named Gebhard, and Heribert
had a brother named Udo.
3. The death notice of count Udo under the year 949 in the Continuator
of Regino, suggests that Udo's estates were divided among his sons,
but without naming the sons. ["Uto comes obiit, qui permissu regis,
quicquid beneficii aut praefecturarum habuit, quasi haereditatem inter
filios divisit." MGH SS 1, 620]. Since Udo is said to have had sons
among whom possessions of his were divided, and Heribert and his
brothers apparently held some of these possessions [I don't yet have
documentation for this specific fact], they would seem to make good
candidates for these sons of count Udo.
[End part 2b, to be continued in part 2c]
|Heribert of Kinziggau, part 2b by (Stewart Baldwin)|