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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-04 > 1018855365


From: malinda <>
Subject: Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas de Criol
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 02:22:45 -0500
References: <004701c1e3f8$2528a5e0$6e7486d9@oemcomputer><03e501c1e402$bc3f0a00$de00a8c0@mshome.net>


There are also some Keriell/Criell Monumental Brasses in Kent
http://www.ashmol.ox.ac.uk/ash/departments/antiquities/brass/

~malinda

----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosie Bevan" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2002 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas de Criol


> Dear MichaelAnne and Chris
>
> The 1613 Visitation of Huntingdonshire shows the following complex
> arrangement. The confusion about the two Margerys appears to have come
about
> through an uncle and nephew, both named Nicholas Kryell being married to a
> Margery. Also as sometimes encountered in medieval families, there were
two
> siblings with the same name - brothers Nicholas in the second generation.
> The only error in the pedigree that I am aware of is that Katherine
Pabenham
> was married to William Cheyne first and Thomas Aylesbury second, not the
> other way around. Hence Lawrence Cheyne being her heir.
>
> 1. Nicholas Kryell=Joan Nevyll
> 2.Bartram Kryell d.s.p.
> 2.Simon Kryell d.s.p.
> 2.Nicholas Kryell, frater senior=Margeria Clifford
> 3.Bertram Kryell
> 4.John Kryell d.s.p.
> 3.Joan d.s.p.=Sir Wm Baude
> 3.Agnes=Sir Michael Poynings
> 4.Michael Poynings d.s.p.
> 3.Margaret=Sir Robert Hereward
> 4.Margeria=William Lovell
> 5. Beatrix=Roger Chambur
> 6.John Chambur
> 3.Elizabeth=Sir John Pabenham
> 4.Thomas Pabenham
> 5.Lawrence Pabenham
> 6.Katherine= 1.Thomas Aylesbury 2.William Cheyne
> 7.Lawrence Cheyne
> 8.Sir John Cheyne
> 6.Alianor=John Tyringham, son of Sir John Tyringham
> 7.John Tiringham=Alicia
> 8.John Tiringham=Elizabeth dau of Edmund
> Brudenell
> 3.Catharine d.s.p.=Sir Geoffrey Braddene
> 2.Nicholas Kryell frater junior=Joan da. of Sir Wm Hauberville
> 3.Nicholas Kryell=Margaret da. of Sir Gilbert Pecche
> 4.Nicholas Kryell=Rosia
> 5 John Kryell
> 6.John Kryell
> 7.Rosia=John Wykis of Newmarket, armiger
> 8.Roisia=Hugh Stranle, armiger
> 6.Nicholas Kryell
> 7.William Kryell
> 8.Thomas Kryell
>
> If anyone would like a jpeg scan of this pedigree, I am happy to oblige.
>
> Cheers
>
> Rosie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Phillips" <>
> To: <>
> Sent: Monday, April 15, 2002 9:00 AM
> Subject: Re: Margery Pecche or Clifford, wife of Nicholas de Criol
>
>
> > MichaelAnne Guido wrote:
> > > What is the correct ancestry of Margery, wife of Nicholas de Criol of
> > > Croxton Criol, Co. Leicester and Eynsford co. Kent? They were married
> > > ca. 1271/2 and there are conflicting sources on this woman.
> > >
> > > George Baker, The History and Antiquities of the County of
> > > Northampton, Vol. I, John Bowyer Nichols & Son, London, 1822-1830,
> > > page 714:
> > >
> > > Elizabeth, daughter and coheir of Nicholas de Crioll of Thenford, co.
> > > Northampton by Margery Clifford 7 Edward II (1313). Esc. 20 Edward
> > > III, page 2, no. 4. She married Sir John Pabenham of Pabenham, co.
> > > Bedford and jure uxoris of Thenford, co. Northampton.
> > >
> > > page 713:
> > >
> > > In 7 Edward II (1313) Richard Clifford, son and heir of John Clifford,
> > > released to Margery de Crioll widow of Sir Nicholas de Crioll,
> > > Elizabeth wife of Sir John de Pabenham, and Margery daughter and
> > > heiress of Sir Robert de Hereward, all right in lands of their
> > > inheritance in Inchester, Fardish, Willy, Puddington, Higham,
> > > Lillingston and Thenford i
> >
> > [in the counties of Northampton, Bedford, Buckingham and Oxford [Placit.
> > Michaelmas. Westmoreland 7 Edward II].
> >
> > kbrad60 replied:
> > > CP v. III p. 542 indicates that Margery was a da. of Gilbert Peche, of
> > > Westcliff, co. Kent. Patent Roll 56 Henry III, m. 22 & Close Roll,
> > > 32 Edward I, m. 16.
> >
> > I missed this when it was originally posted a couple of days ago, but
> > MichaelAnne Guido sent me the details today off-list, pointing out that
> the
> > Complete Peerage identifies this Margery Peche as the widow Margery who
> > survived Nicholas Criol, and also mentioning that Hugh Clifford's "The
> House
> > of Clifford" explains the quitclaim by Richard Clifford in 1313 by
> asserting
> > that Richard's father John had married Margaret [or Margery] Hereward
and
> > had by her, as well as Richard, two daughters, Isabella, who married
> Robert
> > FitzPain, and Margery, who married Nicholas de Carrol.
> >
> > Some time ago I made some notes on Elizabeth, the wife of John de
> Pabenham,
> > mainly from the Victoria County History's account of Lillingstone Lovell
> > [VCH Buckinghamshire vol.3, p.41] and also from VCH Bedfordshire, vol.3,
> > pp.41,50,57. The notes need to be supplemented by more from original
> > sources, but I think they clarify the identity of this Margery, widow of
> > Nicholas Criol.
> >
> > The VCH account says that Margery Criol (Keriel), Elizabeth wife of John
> > Pabenham, and Margery the daughter and heir of Robert and Margaret
> Hereward,
> > appear to have been the heirs of one Margery Clifford, who in 1254 held
> the
> > manor of Lillingston Lovell under Sir Hugh de Chaceporc, and married
first
> > Peter de St Martin, and then by 1260 Peter Dansey [=Dauntsey?], the
manor
> > being settled on them and their issue, with remainder to Margery's right
> > heirs in that year. The manor was held under the condition of giving a
> > "clove gillyflower" at Easter to Richard Clifford and his heirs
> (presumably
> > the Richard Clifford of 1313 was one of these heirs). Peter was still
> living
> > in 1266, and Margery in 1284.
> >
> > Chronologically, Margery the widow of Nicholas Criol would fit as a
> daughter
> > of Margery Clifford by Peter Dansey (Nicholas being a minor in 1272).
> > Elizabeth the wife of John Pabenham would also fit more comfortably as a
> > sister of Margery than a daughter - if my notes are correct, John the
son
> of
> > John Pabenham was married by 1295 (though looking at them it's not
> > absolutely clear he was Elizabeth's son). In this case, Margaret the
wife
> of
> > Robert Hereward would probably be the third sister.
> >
> > I suppose there is the possibility that Margery Clifford died without
> issue,
> > and that Margery, Elizabeth and Margaret were her right heirs rather
than
> > her daughters. Even so, it's difficult to see how Margery could be a
> > daughter of Gilbert Pecche, who according to the Complete Peerage
[vol.10,
> > p.336] had sons by both marriages. So it seems that Nicholas Criol must
> have
> > married twice, first to Margery Pecche, and second to Margery the coheir
> of
> > Margery Clifford.
> >
> > Two more points:
> >
> > (1) According to the VCH account, Lillingstone Lovell had been held by a
> > William Clifford as early as 1131. Therefore it seems that Hugh
Clifford,
> in
> > "The House of Clifford" is not only wrong in its detailed
reconstruction,
> > but in attaching these Cliffords to the Frampton-of-Severn family, has
> > picked the wrong family altogether, because he says that the first of
the
> > Frampton family to assume the name Clifford was Walter (1127-1187).
> >
> > (2) The VCH account identifies Margery, the daughter of Robert Hereward
> and
> > Margaret, with the later wife of William Lovell. It says that Margery
> Criol
> > was holding a moiety of Lillingstone [Lovell] as late as 1361 [if so,
> > suggesting she may have been much younger than her husband], but
> apparently
> > the Criol portion was later merged with the others, perhaps implying
that
> > Margery Criol left no heirs. (I should like to check this point further,
> > though.)
> >
> > Chris Phillips
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


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