Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-05 > 1020456831

From: "Allan Connochie" <>
Subject: Re: Oppida in Irish Culture; was: Ancient Irish 'Pedigrees' (was Re: History & Genealogy or the Mathematical Study of Genealogy?)
Date: Fri, 3 May 2002 21:13:51 +0100
References: <>, <aapn9v$v0g$>, <>

"Chris and Tom Tinney, Sr." <> wrote in message
> "The debate over who and
> what can legitimately be
> termed "Celtic" has been
> raging for over a decade
> in academic circles."
> Simon James is of the belief
> "that probably all cases of
> ethnogenesis arise from such
> a sense of common threat
> from external Others" or
> "perceived common cultural
> threat".

Most modern historians seem to be off the opinion that the Picts spoke a
P-Celtic language though in the past some claimed it was Q-Celtic.
Whatever, the Antonine Wall was a manmade artificial frontier. It seems
that the Celtic speaking tribes south of the wall became Britons whilst
those tribes north of the wall outside the empire became known as Picts.

> Emergent nobilities as "part
> of the wider circle of their
> peers," are the "privileged
> few, apparently elites
> dominant in religion,
> politics and war."
> The stated record of King
> Ugaine Mor, viewed from
> internal evidence, match
> the history of Ireland
> during 'La Tne culture'
> time period circa 200 B.C.
> Oppida and Unity, by force
> and common council, shows
> up as a pattern, proven
> in the later historical
> evidence of Roman failure
> to fully conquer its hated
> Celtic enemy, (in Ireland
> and by tribute extension
> into the northernmost areas
> of the British Isles).
> High King gaine Mor "held sway
> over the islands of western
> Europe" and gaine Mor was
> part of a Celtic network "into
> Scotland", involved with
> "yearly tribute to the Monarchs
> of Ireland". At this time,
> a political taxing unit was
> established and remained in
> power for circa 300 years,
> or circa 200 B.C. to the
> approximate A.D. 100 time
> frame.

That is the point I was making. Personally I know nothing about Ugaine
Mor except that the dates you and Berresford give are centuries before the
emergence of the Picts as a people! ie, the end of the 3rdC AD.

> "Initiated persons" were
> motivated by religious
> considerations to alter
> ancient Irish chronology,
> removing and replacing
> historical markers with
> "gnostic" elements;
> placing, in some cases, non
> contemporaries all together
> from disparate generations.
> External evidence from non
> Irish historical sources
> creates a framework for the
> consideration of Ugaine Mor
> as truly historical, within
> the time frame of Carthage
> and the Roman Punic Wars;
> his ancestry being drawn
> down in time, accordingly.
> LAMHFIONN, born circa 955 B.C.
> Heber GLUNFIONN, born circa 930 B.C.
> Agnan FIONN, born circa 905 B.C.
> Febric GLAS, born circa 870 B.C.
> NENUALL, born circa 845 B.C.
> NUADADH(NUADHAD), born circa 820 B.C.
> [Carthage founded ca. 814/813 B.C.; also
> approximates "His posterity continued
> there to the eighth generation; and
> were kings or chief rulers there
> for one hundred and fifty years"]
> ALLADH, born circa 795 B.C.
> ARCADH(AREADH}, born circa 770 B.C.
> DEAG(H), born circa 745 B.C.
> BRATH, born circa 720 B.C.
> (Brigus) BREOGHAN, born circa 695 B.C.
> BILE, born circa 670 B.C.
> (Galamh) MILESIUS, born circa 645 B.C.
> HEREMON, born circa 620 B.C.
> ETC.
> Respectfully yours,

Myth is interesting but shouldn't be put forward as historical fact.


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