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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-05 > 1021464479


From: Marin-Guzman <>
Subject: Re: Pelayo´s uncle?
Date: Wed, 15 May 2002 22:07:59 +1000
References: <20020515092135.75861.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>


I agree. In 711, Spain was caught by the moors in a state of fusion, between
the old Roman families and the ruling Visigoths.

Evidence of this is the fact Pedro (a Roman name) Duque de Cantabria, calls
his children Alfonso (Gothic) and Fruela (Gothic).

Alfonso I calls his children Fruela (Gothic), Adosinda (Gothic) and Aurelio
(Roman).

The Duque Fafila (Gothic) calls his son Pelayo (Roman) and he in turn calls
his son Fafila (Gothic).

However, although Pelayo is from a gothic family (his name is probably
Pelagius), I agree with you when you say he must have been a local man, with
real local knowledge, to be able to:

1. Be initially accepted by the dominating Musulman administration (the
moors regularly allowed conquered peoples a certain amount of autonomy with
forced imposts - a relationship not dissimilar to a protectorate - but
always with an indigenous leader)

2. Be elected, not just accepted, by the Asturians as King, specially when
the Visigoths were
a) responsible for the desolation of Spain and,
b) a bunch of despots.

3. Lead the remnants of the Spanish nation SUCCESSFULLY against the moors
in extremely treacherous territory.

(With all the hate the Asturs felt towards the Visigoths at the time, it was
also fortunate he had a Roman name although Pelayo was probably a way of
making it sound more Asturian - and a story to establish him as an enemy of
Witiza.)

But 60 or 70 years after beingl accepted by the local Asturs, it was OK to
be Visigoth again.

So, one of the tasks of these Alfonsin Chronicles then, was to make sure the
new ruling dynasty was well cemented into the preceding royalty. Continuity
was of the utmost importance to them, probably even at the expense of the
truth.

The creation of an "Epitome Historico Universal", including the "Chronica
Visegothorum" (now lost) and the "Ordo Gotorum Obetensium Regum" including
the new Spanish monarchy as part of this "Epitome", performed the task
perfectly, cemented the monarchy and re-created the Visigoth kingdom of
Spain in Asturias.


Pedro Marin-Guzman

============================================================================




> From: (maria emma escobar)
> Organization: RootsWeb.com, Inc. News
> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> Date: 15 May 2002 03:21:36 -0600
> Subject: Pelayo´s uncle?
>
>
> I want to come back to the discussion about Pelayo,
> his origins and his family.
> In this point there is a problem with the different
> versions and parts of the chronicles, because the
> older one, the Albeldense, have different parts and
> versions too.
> The two versions of the Albeldense, named Emilianense
> and Complutense have an insertion which is not in the
> Manuscrito Albeldense. This insertion or interpolation
> is the Ordo Gentis Gotorum. Is in this last part, in
> this Ordo, in the paragraph about Vitiza where the
> references about Pelayo´s family are. The
> interpolation said Palayo was a son of the duke
> Favila. The prince Vitiza, who lived in Tuy, killed
> Favila in this city because of a woman. When Vitiza
> became a king, he exiled Pelayo out of Toledo because
> the problem with his father.
> This interpolation forced to insert in the Emilianense
> and Complutense versions a reference: ?ut supra
> diximus? to explain Pelayo´s family, but the
> interpolation was made times after by a person who
> knows the Ovetense version of the Alfonso III
> chronicle, which says that Vitiza was king in Tuy and
> says that Pelayo was Duke Favila´s son.
> This interpolation is in the same line of the other
> made in the Albeldense version made by Florez, which
> says that Pelayo was son of a Bermudo and nephew of
> king Rodrigo. Probably there are only different
> attempts to link the new monarchy with the old one by
> the blood, by the family, because the blood gave the
> rights.
> But¿ what really says the Cronica about Pelayo? It
> says he was the first king of Asturias and reigned in
> Cangas. As Vitiza expulsed him from Toledo, he went
> to Asturias and when the Muslims occupied Spain, he
> was the first who rebelled against them in Asturias: {
> Primum in Asturias Pelagius regnavit in Canicas? Iste
> a Vitizane rege in Toleto expulsus, Asturias [est]
> ingressus. Et postquam a sarrazenis Spania occupata
> est, iste primum contra eos sumsit revellionem in
> Asturias.} (version Gómez Moreno).
>
> My opinion about Pelayo family is very restrictive,
> very conservative. I believe that Pelayo was probably
> a member of a local family which had represent the
> gothic kingdom in Asturias before the invasion,
> probably with a part of gothic blood by marriages, but
> a local family who had the support of other local
> families, and who knows very good the land, the
> terrible asturians mountains, which was necessary to
> fight the muslims.
> I think in this problem the family names are very
> important. Probably the name of Pelayo´s father was
> Favila, but only because is the name of his son. But,
> if they are from a Visigoth family, related of the
> kings, why they didn?t use any of the names of this
> kings? It could be the best proof of their legitimacy.
> If the tradition was to give to the new members
> family names, why this Pelayo, Favila, Vermudo,
> Alfonso, Ramiro, Aurelio, Ordoño, etc. There are not
> any of the old king?s names in the new family. It
> seems there are names of a new tribe, a new group.
> Mee
>
>
>
>
> =====
>
>
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