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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-05 > 1021641833


From: (Bryant Smith)
Subject: Re: Pelayo´s uncle?
Date: 17 May 2002 06:23:53 -0700
References: <20020515092135.75861.qmail@web13902.mail.yahoo.com>, <B9088CBF.AB2A%magus2@bigpond.com>


Marin-Guzman <> wrote in message news:<B9088CBF.AB2A%>...
Comments inserted seriatim

> I agree. In 711, Spain was caught by the moors in a state of fusion, between
> the old Roman families and the ruling Visigoths.
>
> Evidence of this is the fact Pedro (a Roman name) Duque de Cantabria, calls
> his children Alfonso (Gothic) and Fruela (Gothic).
>
> Alfonso I calls his children Fruela (Gothic), Adosinda (Gothic) and Aurelio
> (Roman).
>
> The Duque Fafila (Gothic) calls his son Pelayo (Roman) and he in turn calls
> his son Fafila (Gothic).

Why do you say Pelayo is a Roman name? I understood "Pelagius" to
be a latinized version used in cronicles etc. but not the fellow´s
original name. I know of no Roman precedent for "Pelagius."

>
> However, although Pelayo is from a gothic family (his name is probably
> Pelagius), I agree with you when you say he must have been a local man, with
> real local knowledge, to be able to:
>
> 1. Be initially accepted by the dominating Musulman administration (the
> moors regularly allowed conquered peoples a certain amount of autonomy with
> forced imposts - a relationship not dissimilar to a protectorate - but
> always with an indigenous leader)
>
Where is it written that Pelayo had an official position under the
moslem administration -- other than being sent as a messenger
by Munnuza to get him out of the way?

> 2. Be elected, not just accepted, by the Asturians as King,
My reading of the authorities ancinet and modern suggests that
(a) He was chosen "leader" of a revolt by the Asturs and (b)
later elected king by the Visigothic remnant which, of course,
had retreated into the mountains.
> specially when
> the Visigoths were
> a) responsible for the desolation of Spain and,
What is your authority for this "desolation?"
> b) a bunch of despots.
So were they all, all despots.
> 3. Lead the remnants of the Spanish nation SUCCESSFULLY against the moors
> in extremely treacherous territory.
This is _non sequitur_

>
> (With all the hate the Asturs felt towards the Visigoths at the time, it was
> also fortunate he had a Roman name although Pelayo was probably a way of
> making it sound more Asturian - and a story to establish him as an enemy of
> Witiza.)
>
> But 60 or 70 years after beingl accepted by the local Asturs, it was OK to
> be Visigoth again.
>
> So, one of the tasks of these Alfonsin Chronicles then, was to make sure the
> new ruling dynasty was well cemented into the preceding royalty. Continuity
> was of the utmost importance to them, probably even at the expense of the
> truth.
The remarkable thing about the "Alfonsin Chronicles" to me is that
they have so little of that. The Roda is for all I can see a
religious polemic and the Ovetense has only a little less preaching
and a little more genealogy but not enough to show an intent to
legitimize a new dynasty.
>
> The creation of an "Epitome Historico Universal", including the "Chronica
> Visegothorum" (now lost) and the "Ordo Gotorum Obetensium Regum" including
> the new Spanish monarchy as part of this "Epitome", performed the task
> perfectly, cemented the monarchy and re-created the Visigoth kingdom of
> Spain in Asturias.
>
A much later "source" ¿verdad?

I am attracted to the following alternative scenario:
The "state of [con]fusion" was not over the fading Roman
regime but a dynastic struggle within the visigothic
royal house. Ervig, Egica and Witiza were not direct
descendants of Chindaswinth but a cadet branch. Roderic,
as Chindaswinth´s grandson, represented the senior branch
which had been shunted aside as a result of Chindaswinth´s
"abandonment" of Theodoric. Córdoba was where Theodoric
went and probably where Pelayo followed when he in his turn
was exiled from the capital. Remember from the three oldest
cronicles that Akila II and his family, including his uncle
Bishop Oppa, went to Galicia when Witiza died; Roderic "rebelliously"
seized the crown; the Akila branch negotiated with the Arabs for
help in retaking the throne; Roderic offended his African general
Julian by seducing Florinda; and "treachery" of Akila and his
brothers and uncle are given part of the blame for the arabian
success (Roderic´s own army, or part of it, betrayed him when
he went into battle).
In this scenario it is entirely credible to me that Pelayo was
Roderic´s nephew (which would mean that his mother, his father
duke Fáfila´s wife, was Rodrigo´s sister) and a legitimate
claimant to the Chindaswinth heritage. This scenario offers,
I think, no serious chornological problems whereas making
Fáfila a son of Chindaswinth, or Pelayo a grandson of Roderic,
does.
Just a fugue.
Saludos
Bryant Smith
Playa Palo Seco
Costa Rica
> Pedro Marin-Guzman
>
> ============================================================================
>
>
>
>
> > From: (maria emma escobar)
> > Organization: RootsWeb.com, Inc. News
> > Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
> > Date: 15 May 2002 03:21:36 -0600
> > Subject: Pelayo´s uncle?
> >
> >
> > I want to come back to the discussion about Pelayo,
> > his origins and his family.
> > In this point there is a problem with the different
> > versions and parts of the chronicles, because the
> > older one, the Albeldense, have different parts and
> > versions too.
> > The two versions of the Albeldense, named Emilianense
> > and Complutense have an insertion which is not in the
> > Manuscrito Albeldense. This insertion or interpolation
> > is the Ordo Gentis Gotorum. Is in this last part, in
> > this Ordo, in the paragraph about Vitiza where the
> > references about Pelayo´s family are. The
> > interpolation said Palayo was a son of the duke
> > Favila. The prince Vitiza, who lived in Tuy, killed
> > Favila in this city because of a woman. When Vitiza
> > became a king, he exiled Pelayo out of Toledo because
> > the problem with his father.
> > This interpolation forced to insert in the Emilianense
> > and Complutense versions a reference: ?ut supra
> > diximus? to explain Pelayo´s family, but the
> > interpolation was made times after by a person who
> > knows the Ovetense version of the Alfonso III
> > chronicle, which says that Vitiza was king in Tuy and
> > says that Pelayo was Duke Favila´s son.
> > This interpolation is in the same line of the other
> > made in the Albeldense version made by Florez, which
> > says that Pelayo was son of a Bermudo and nephew of
> > king Rodrigo. Probably there are only different
> > attempts to link the new monarchy with the old one by
> > the blood, by the family, because the blood gave the
> > rights.
> > But¿ what really says the Cronica about Pelayo? It
> > says he was the first king of Asturias and reigned in
> > Cangas. As Vitiza expulsed him from Toledo, he went
> > to Asturias and when the Muslims occupied Spain, he
> > was the first who rebelled against them in Asturias: {
> > Primum in Asturias Pelagius regnavit in Canicas? Iste
> > a Vitizane rege in Toleto expulsus, Asturias [est]
> > ingressus. Et postquam a sarrazenis Spania occupata
> > est, iste primum contra eos sumsit revellionem in
> > Asturias.} (version Gómez Moreno).
> >
> > My opinion about Pelayo family is very restrictive,
> > very conservative. I believe that Pelayo was probably
> > a member of a local family which had represent the
> > gothic kingdom in Asturias before the invasion,
> > probably with a part of gothic blood by marriages, but
> > a local family who had the support of other local
> > families, and who knows very good the land, the
> > terrible asturians mountains, which was necessary to
> > fight the muslims.
> > I think in this problem the family names are very
> > important. Probably the name of Pelayo´s father was
> > Favila, but only because is the name of his son. But,
> > if they are from a Visigoth family, related of the
> > kings, why they didn?t use any of the names of this
> > kings? It could be the best proof of their legitimacy.
> > If the tradition was to give to the new members
> > family names, why this Pelayo, Favila, Vermudo,
> > Alfonso, Ramiro, Aurelio, Ordoño, etc. There are not
> > any of the old king?s names in the new family. It
> > seems there are names of a new tribe, a new group.
> > Mee
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > =====
> >
> >
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