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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-05 > 1022067331


From: Francisco Antonio Doria <>
Subject: Re: Pelayo?s_uncle?
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:35:31 -0300 (ART)
In-Reply-To: <a9b2ce02.0205211352.497b481e@posting.google.com>



Bryant,

No problem. Look for the files on the Abunazar
question, 98/99. I quoted several Lorvão documents
witnessed by Ramiro II and his sons. They are from
Herculano's DC collection.

I think princeps is too ambiguous. To me it means
commander, in the general case.

chico

--- Bryant Smith <> escreveu: >
Chico,
> Without doubtng your veracity or sagacity, I confess
> great surprise and would like to see direct
> quotations
> with citations, for I´ve never seen "rex" used for
> anyone
> not-yet king.
>
> Au contraire, I offer the Roda version on Ramiro:
>
> Post Adefonsi discessum Ranemirum filius Veremudi
> principis
> eligitur in regnum.
>
> This is the passage I referred to yesterday, where
> Vermudo
> is called princeps and was either Vermudo the
> Deacon-King,
> most probable within the four corners of the Roda,
> or was
> another Vermudo who became king (son of the Vajay
> Fruela
> "missus"). Exactly the same sentence is repeated,
> only
> changing "eligitur" to "electus est," in the Oviedo
> version
> ("ad Sebastianum). I suppose you could see princeps
> here as
> son-of-king on the theory that Ramiro was born
> before this
> Vermudo became king (and therefore started out in
> life as
> son of the prince Vermudo) but I think rather
> clearly here
> princeps means king.
>
> It´s make-weight, but notice the contrast between
> dux and
> princeps in the Oviedo-version passage on the
> election of
> Pelayo:
>
> "... Pelagium, filium quondam [notice the N in
> quondam!] Fafilani
> ducis ex semene regio, principem elegerunt."
>
> By the way, "confrater," which I rendered loosely as
> "pal"
> or "buddy" in Oppa´s address to Pelayo before
> Covadonga (Roda
> version), is used as "cousin" where the Roda
> chronicle describes
> Aurelius as Fruela´s "confrater." The word is
> changed to
> "consubrinus" in the Oviedo version (where, by the
> way, the
> author goes out of his way to add that Aurelio was
> filius
> Froilanis fratris Adefonsi -- interesting since in
> the Vajay
> reconstruction Alfonso II has a brother Fruela
> ("missus")
> who was the father of that other Vermudo; and yet
> the Vajay
> chart leaves Aurelio in place as brother of the
> deacon).
>
> I´m still looking for that other use of princeps as
> king. It
> was not Alfonso I. When (if ever) I come across it
> again I´ll
> be sure to let you know.
>
> Saludos
> Bryant Smith
> Playa Palo Seco
> Costa Rica
>
>
>
>
> (=?iso-8859-1?q?Francisco=20Antonio=20Doria?=) wrote
> in message
>
news:<>...
> > Bryant,
> >
> > 9th and 10th century documents I've seen refer to
> the
> > king's sons as rex, not as princeps.
> >
> > chico
>

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