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From:
Subject: Ancestry of Margery de Stuteville, wife of Sir Richard Foliot
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2002 22:13:24 EDT


Tuesday, 2 July, 2002

<<<<<<<<< an incomplete version of this post
was sent in error earlier.
My apologies for the confusion >>>>>>>>>>>>


Hello All,

While this may not be a 'new' discovery, I did wish to post the following
for the information of all (it was in fact new to me).

William de Stuteville (aka d'Estuteville), of Gressenhall and Elsing,
Norfolk & c. (d. in or before May 1259) is shown as the father of Margery de
Stuteville, heiress in her issue of her brother Sir Robert de Stuteville and
wife of Sir Richard Foliot of Norton, co. York & c. (ca. 1214-1299/1300) [1].
He is shwon as the son of Osmund de Stuteville (d. ca. 1193 in Jaffa, on
Crusade) by Isabel, daughter and heiress of William fitz Roger of
Gressenhall, Norfolk [2].

Blomefield provides the following information concerning William de
Stuteville:

' In the 13th of Henry III. he paid 40 marks for
23 knights fees, and in the 15th in consideration
of two palfreys, and 20s. in silver obtained
pardon for marrying Margaret, daughter and heir
of Hugh de Say of Ricard's Castle in Herefordshire,
relict of Robert Mortimer, without license;....' [3]

Chris Phillips has provided confirmatory information concerning the
marriage of William de Stuteville and Margaret de Say, from CP (article on
Mortimer of Richard's Castle), which states in the text concerning the death
of Robert de Mortimer's death before 5 July 1219, 'Very shortly afterwards
Margaret m. 3rdly, William de Stuteville' [4]. One footnote to this section
provides the following documentation re: the marriage:

' Exch. K.R., Mem. Roll, 4 Hen. III, m. 5.
Official intimation was sent to her, 5 Nov.
1219, that the young King would be much
pleased, provided it suited her, if she
would marry his well-beloved and trusty
William de Stuteville (r. Lit. Claus.,
vol. i, p. 407). ' [4]

The appearance of a discrepancy here between the CP evidence and
Blomefield's account [for which Blomefield does not provide a documentated
basis] would appear to be due to a date problem - perhaps Blomefield meant a
date of 5 Hen. III as opposed to 15 [placing the marriage ca. 1220, shortly
after the 'intimation' of 4 Hen. III]; this seems more likely than a
sustained courtship or resistance to the marriage of some 10 years otherwise
indicated by Blomefield's date. It is also possible, following the
'intimation', that William de Stuteville and Margaret de Say then rushed to
an actual marriage and consummation, perhaps misinterpreting the 'intimation'
as allowing the marriage without formal license.

Whichever the case may be, the CP account and evidence makes it certain
that the marriage did in fact occur. As Chris has noted in an earlier
message, the fact that CP states ' William de Stuteville d. in or before May
1259, holding various lands in right of Margaret his late wife ' [4]
indicates clearly that there was issue of this marriage.

Banks' Dormant Baronage shows Robert and his brother Osmund de Stuteville
as the sons of this marriage [4]; from the probable birthdate of Margery de
Stuteville, sister and heir (in her issue), of between say 1223 and 1233 [5],
she would then be reasonably placed as a full sister of these two, and a
daughter of William by Margaret de Say [evidently for whom she was named].

Based upon the identification of Margaret de Say as the mother of Margery
de Stuteville, the following ahnentafel is provided to reflect the ancestry
of Sir Jordan Foliot as it is now understood. Through Millicent of Rethel,
at least, this gives the descendants of Margery de Stuteville several lines
of descent from Charlemagne (besides Henry 'the Fowler', Hugh 'Capet' and
other noteworthy individuals). If anyone would wish to see a more expanded
version, please advise.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

1. Sir Jordan Foliot, of Gressenhall and Elsing, Norfolk
& c.; b. bef 2 May 1249; d. bef 2 May 1299. lst Lord
Foliot [1]

2. Sir Richard Foliot, of Norton and Fenwick, co. Yorks.,
& c.; b. aft 5 Mar 1214/5; d. Mar 1299 [1]
3. Margery de Stuteville

4. Jordan Foliot, of Grimston, co. Notts; d. bef 5 Mar
1235/6 [1]
5. _________
6. Sir William de Stuteville, of Gressenhall and Elsing,
Norfolk & c.; d. bef Jun 1259 [1]
7. Margaret de Say, heiress of her father [she m. lstly
Hugh de Ferriers, 2ndly Robert de Mortimer] [1], [2]

8. Richard Foliot [1]
9. Beatrice Bardolf, sister and coheiress of Robert
Bardolf of Grimston, co. Notts. & c. [1]
10. _______
11. _______
12. Osmund de Stuteville, of Gressenhall and Elsing,
Norfolk de jure uxoris; d. ca. 1193 Jaffa, Palestine
[3], [4]
13. Isabel fitz Roger, heiress of Gressenhall & c. [3], [4]
14. Hugh de Say, of Burford, co. Salop and Richard's
Castle, co. Hereford; d. ca. 1197 [1]
15. Mabel Marmion; d. bef 1211 [1]

16. ______
17. ______
18. Hugh Bardolf, of Great Carlton, co. Lincs. and
Hoo, Kent; d. ca. 1176 [1], [5]
19. Isabel de Cundy [Condet], daughter of Robert de
Cundy and Adeliza 'Meschin' of Chester [1], [5]
20. ______
21. ______
22. ______
23. ______
24. ______
25. ______
26. William fitz Roger, of Gressenhall and Elsing, Norfolk
[3], [4]
27. ______
28. Hugh de Say, of Burford, co. Salop and Richard's
Castle, co. Hereford; d. bef 1191 [1]
29. Lucy de Clifford [1]
30. Robert Marmion, seigneur of Fontenay-le-Marmion; of
Tamworth, co. Warwick; murdered ca. 1144 [1], [6]
31. Millicent of Rethel, 'cognata mea' of Queen Adeliza
of England [1], [6]


NOTES TO THE AHNENTAFEL ONLY
[1] CP, articles on Foliot, Lord Foliot; Mortimer of
Richard's Castle
[2] CP, article on Mortimer of Richard's Castle (provided
by Chris Phillips]
[3] MC 5th ed.
[4] Blomefield, Topographical History of the County of
Norfolk
[5] AR 7
[6] Alan B. Wilson, 'Marmions in the Ancestry of Thomas
Bradbury', SGM, 14 Apr 1997

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

A separate post will be sent to SGM on the ancestry of William fitz Roger
of Gressenhall, based primarily on Blomefield. This information, and the
foregoing citations re: de Stuteville from Blomefield, was provided by Rosie
Bevan.

This connection set forth above was made possible due to the hard work
and contributions of Rosie Bevan and Chris Phillips, to whom the credit and
my thanks are due. Any comments, additional or corrective documentation or
criticism (which is always welcome) should be directed towards myself.

Good luck and good hunting to all.

John *


NOTES TO THE TEXT

[1] CP, article on Foliot, Lord Foliot (Vol. V).
[2] MC 5th ed., Line 51; also CP, article on Huntingfield,
Lord Huntingfield (Vol. VI).
[3] Blomefield, Topographical History of the County of
Norfolk, Vol. 9, p. 511 (re: Gressenhall); see also
Vol 8 re: Elsing (pp. 201 et seq.).
[4] CP Vol. IX, article on Mortimer of Richard's Castle,
pp. 260-1 and footnotes. This was provided by
Chris Phillips.
[5] Sir Richard Foliot, her husband, was born after 5 Mar
1214/5 based on information provided by CP as to his
being a minor upon receiving livery of his father's
lands [his father died in 1235]. How much later is
not certain, but the probability certainly is that
his wife would be younger than he. Their eldest son
Sir Jordan Foliot was born before 2 May 1249; the
latest probable birth date for Margery de Stuteville
would be say 1233 [although a birth date as late as
1234 is certainly possible].




* John P. Ravilious








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