Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1025709353

From: Kay Allen AG <>
Subject: Re: Parentage of Leuca de Montalt (d. bef. 1228),wife of Philip de Orreby
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2002 08:15:53 -0700
References: <>

CP under Orreby, p. 170: "He [Philip] m. Leucha, da. of Roger DE MOHAUT (s. of
Robert de Mohaut by Leucha his wife--- see MOHAUT)"

Mary Zashin wrote:

> Dear list,
> I have just obtained a CD of Ormerod, and on my first exursion therein I
> found a conflict with the information in CP that I hope someone with more
> knowledge than I can tell me how to resolve. The problem is with the
> ancestry of Leuca, wife of Philip de Orreby.
> Ormerod, Vol. 2, p. 75, under Edisbury Hundred, Alvanley, writes
> (paraphrased):
> Philip de Orreby, son of the justice of Chester, married Leuca, daughter and
> sole heiress of Roger de Montalt, and of his wife Cecily, the daughter and
> finally coheiress of William, earl of Arundel. Their daughter, Agnes,
> married Walkelin de Arderne, son of Sir John de Arderne of Aldford. Ormerod
> says that the Grovesnor MSS authenticates this Arderne-Orreby connection,
> and that this led "through coheiresses to the blood of the earls of Arundel
> and Chester, and the dukes of Normandy. . .In right of this marriage (Agnes
> de Orreby to Walkelin de Arderne) the representatives of Walkelyn de Arndere
> are entitled to quarter the Ducal coat of Normandy and those of the earls of
> Arundel, Chester, and Mercia." Immediately after this statement, he prints
> two Latin documents, which may give his reasons for asserting this.
> Ormerod, vol. 1, p. 58, gives a chart of the Montalts:
> Robert, temp. K. Stephen, m. Leucha
> \
> Roger, d. 1232, m. Nichola
> \
> Roger, d. 1260, m. Cecilia d'Aubigny, dau of William, 3rd d'Aubigny earl of
> Arundel
> \
> Leuca, d. bef 1228, m. Philip de Orreby, d. bef. his father (in 1230?)
> \
> Agnes, m. Walkelin de Arderne
> Ormerod, vol 2, pp 85, gives a chart of the Ardernes:
> John, in records dated 1209, 1229
> \
> Walkelin, heir in or bef. 1237-38, d. abt. 1265, m. Agnes
> However, CP X, pp 169-170 (Orreby) gives:
> Philip de Orreby, b.abt 1190, m. Leucha, da. of Roger de Mohaut (s. of
> Robert de Mohaut by Leucha his wife), and dvp leaving a dau. Agnes, who in
> or bef 1227 was her mother's heir.
> CP IX, pp 10-13 (Mohaut or Montalt) gives:
> Robert de Mohaut (de Monte Alto), d. abt. 1162, m. Leucha, who surv. him.
> \
> Roger, "presumably son of Robert," d. 1232, m. Nichole
> \
> Roger, d. 28 Jun 1260, m. Cecily d'Aubigny, dau of William, E3 of Arundel,
> and Mabel of Chester, sister of Ranulf III of Chester.
> It seems to me from the date given for Leuca de Orreby's death (1228) that
> she belongs in an earlier generation than Ormerod placed her, and that CP is
> more likely right in making her a dau. of Roger de Montalt and Nichole
> rather than Roger de Montalt and Cecily d'Aubigny. If so, she is prob.
> sister to the Roger who m. Cecily, and therefore the descendants of her
> daughter, Agnes de Orreby, and Walkelin de Arderne lose their descent from
> the d'Aubignys and the Chester earls. But Ormerod seems pretty assertive.
> So I am hoping someone can help me sort this out. If it would help, I will
> post Ormerod's Latin documents. Thanks, Polly Zashin

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