Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2002-07 > 1025868661

Subject: Re: Ray Phair discovers proof of Countess Ida
Date: Fri, 5 Jul 2002 07:31:01 EDT

In a message dated 05/07/02 03:45:49 GMT Daylight Time,

> > Ray Phair posted an incredibly important message wihich seems to contain
> proof
> > of the identity of Countess Ida.
> >
> > Go to:
> >
> >
> If possible, could Ray post the original text of the probative
> document?
> taf

I have Vera London's translation, as appears in Wiltshire Record Society
(Vol XXXV, 1979) "The Cartulary of Bradenstkoe Priory"

645 [1198 x 1199] Confirmation by William Longespee [I], earl of Salisbury,
brother of King Richard, of the grant made by William, earl of Salisbury,
his predecessor, of Godwin, son of Frewin Tod, (a) and all his family and
chattels. To be held free of all services. Witnesses: Rog. of Wells, Wm.
Talbot, Hugh le Bigod, Wm. le Bigod, Rog. Burel, Master Berengar, Master
Wm., Geof. le Veel, Ralph de Parco, Rog. the clerk, Jn. of Cleveland.

(a) Supplied from the otherwise identical charter on Vit. f. 101v.

Note that some of the witnesses above occur in the two cartularies which
contains the phrase "Countess Ida, his mother", one of which is the next
listed in Vera London's book (No 646), and are, no doubt clerks at
Bradenstoke. In fact the other "481" concerned land which had belonged to
the late Ralph de Parco, a witness above. From other cartularies, Ralph de
Parco was William Longespee's knight, and before that, knight to William,
Longespee's father in law. I suspect that Ralph de Parco's land was copyhold
and went back to the "Lord of the Manor" on his death, thus enabling William
Longespee to donate it to the priory.

In my opinion, we are no further on, in identifying countess Ida.

If anyone is interested in my "Off the Wall" theory, than read on:

In my previous posts on the Ida's which I had found in K.S.B Keats-Rohan's

"The one that looks most promising is on page 849 (husband on page 1,004)

Ida daughter of William fitz Gerard mentioned in Cartulary of Eynsham 1174-89

subsequent to her husband's, Walchelin Hareng, death, and attested by her
brother Richard de la Mare."

I went on the theorise, with very little evidence except the locality, that
perhaps this Ida may have previously been married to Gilbert de Clare, Earl
of Hertford although CP says he probably did not marry. This, then, would
entitle her to be called Countess Ida, but unfortunately the extract in DD
from Cartulary of Eynsham does not name her as such.

(Roger de Clare, brother of Gilbert, died in 1173 and was buried in _Eynsham_
Priory, Oxfordshire)

Previously we have assumed, based on the 5 Feb 1191 release of land at Kirton
manor to William Longespee, that he was born around 21 years earlier, ie
shortly before 5 Feb 1170/1. This was about the time of the Norman invasion
of Ireland, Richard de Clare (aka Strongbow and, I think, nephew of Gilbert
de Clare) landed in Ireland 23 Aug 1170 (Robert fitz Stephen, Hervey de
Montmorency and Maurice de Prendergast landed there in May of the previous
year). So it seems to me that it is quite possible that Henry II may well
have been a visitor to the de Clare's, recruiting "volunteers" for the
invasion. Even though Gilbert de Clare, earl of Hertford was still alive, he
may have already been ill, or otherwise not been able to prevent a liaison
between Ida and Henry II.

I have been waiting for months for my local lending library to produce a copy
of Vol 49 and 51 (1907-1908) of the Oxford Historical Society which should
contain the Eynsham Cartulary, in the hope that there may be further evidence
there - still waiting.


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